John Piper’s Saturday Night Special

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In my response to John Piper’s post on guns, I alluded to some of the paradigmatic issues underlying the differences we have concerning what we should do with our guns — whether we should have them in the first place, and what direction we get to point them. One of the paradigmatic differences I mentioned was the alternative ways of interpreting the Old Testament now that Christ has come — but this is just part of a larger picture.Celebrate Diversity Guns

Now when you get to the end of all the discussion, you have a very practical situation on your hands. So there is an intruder threatening your family, and you have to decide what you are willing to do in order to defend them.

So in order to make this decision in a coherent way, we do need to go upstream a ways, farther upstream than the relationship of the Old Testament to the New, although that is also included. What we are actually debating is the relationship between the Christian as saint and the Christian as citizen. This cannot be discussed without also discussing the relationship of church and state, which in our day immediately brings up the issue of “the two kingdoms.”

Let’s start with what Wikipedia calls disambiguation. The separation of church and state — a fine and noble endeavor — is a separation of two governments in the world. Civil government is one thing and church government is another.

The separation is actually supposed to be a financial one, meaning that tithe money should not be collected by the civil magistrate in order to be dispensed to established churches with nitwit bishops. It should also mean, if we had our thoughts gathered about us, that ministers of the gospel ought not be allowed to hold civil office unless they first dimitted their office as ministers. Separation of church and state, historically understood, is a separation-of-powers doctrine, and not a let’s-exile-the-church doctrine.

Now this is something you can only do when both the civil government and church governments are explicitly Christian. When the magistrate and the minister hold their several offices distinctly, but they are both doing so under the authority and by the leave of Jesus Christ, it is possible for them to be separated in this way. Good fences make good neighbors. Because they both know that Jesus reigns, and they both know they are under His Word, they can speak sense to one another. They can each respect their respective job descriptions because they are both in submission to the one who writes all the job descriptions.

Incidentally, as we sort through all this, keep in mind that the family is to be the ministry of health, education and welfare, the church is the ministry of grace and peace, and the civil government is the ministry of justice. Not social justice, mind you. Plain old justice. The task of the civil magistrate, and I am almost tempted to say the sole task, is to make it possible for us to walk across town safely at two in the morning.

When you have this state of affairs — Christian families, Christian churches, and Christian magistrates — it becomes possible for a coherent two kingdoms theology to develop. A right understanding of the two kingdoms is essential if we want to get back to our reformational roots. This means that if we were in St. Louis we would have to head due east toward Geneva. This is 180 degrees away from Escondido, as in what geographers call “the opposite direction.” The Escondido version of two kingdoms theology is not really reformational at all, and is therefore about as fully loaded as John Piper’s Saturday night special.

The two kingdoms does not refer to the division between church and state — and still less a division between church and a secular state. As understood in classic Reformation categories, one kingdom is visible all across the waterfront. The visible kingdom includes the photographable parson, the tangible and pious dairy farmer, and the three-dimensional sheriff. The invisible kingdom includes the interior lives of all three of these gents, not to mention the interior lives of all the other saints all over the place.

That’s it. Inside everywhere is one kingdom and outside everywhere is the other. Not church over here and secular state over there.

Now I hope you can see that there has been no end to our plaguey confusions because we have been perversely taught to cut this thing crosswise instead of lengthwise. When we cut it crosswise, we wind up with two pieces, with half of us thinking that Jesus owns both pieces and the other half thinking that the devil still owns one of them. When we cut it lengthwise, we find that such confusions do not come quite so readily.

When we have a small isolated church and a pagan and unbelieving world all around, like Corinth in the first century, we do not yet have the material for a fully-functional two kingdoms operation. What we have in the church is a starter kit, a box full of yeast, and what you have in the pagan society is what Paul would call something like a “great door for effective work” (1 Cor. 16:9). Our task is not to accommodate ourselves to “two kingdoms,” as though God had signed some kind of truce deal with the devil. Rather our task is to build two kingdoms. We do this by evangelizing the world. That evangelized world will have a visible aspect and an interior, invisible aspect.

When a Christian church is first planted in an unbelieving society, we have created the possibility of two kingdoms, but we have not gotten to Christendom yet. So we do not have (a full-orbed) two kingdoms, but what do we have? More importantly, what do we have in the meantime when we have the Christian world over here and the secular unbelieving world over there? What do we have right now in North America?

Before we answer that question, we need to go through another round of disambiguation. The separation of church and state is not the same thing as separating morality and state. If I may press the point, it is not the same thing at ALL. Nor is it the same thing as separating God and state. Before the nations submit to baptism and instruction in everything Jesus taught, they are still under natural law. They are still under the authority of the God who made the world. God must always be obeyed, and He must be obeyed in everything He has said, and in any venue in which He has said it.

So this brings us to another set of distinctions — special revelation and natural revelation. But before getting into that, I have to clear up another misconception. I used the phrase natural law a few moments ago, and this would appear to bring me into conflict with Gary North’s critique of John Piper. But it is not that simple.

Think of it this way. Many American conservatives with a theocratic bent, such as myself, think that the Constitution should have had an express mention of the Lordship of Jesus Christ. But that by itself won’t fix anything. The United Kingdom is every bit as secular as we are, and then some, and they do have express references to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. All it means is that their secular ruling elites are forced to tell different lies than ours do. When it comes to disobedience, remember that you can always get there from wherever you are. Whatever your starting point, someone will always come along who is willing to tell you pleasant lies.

Gary North took the worldview of Martyn Lloyd-Jones and John Piper to task, and faulted them for being willing to divide up the world into rival authority districts by assuming human autonomy, and in such a way as to enable them to become humanism’s chaplains. But many of the heirs of the reconstructionists have done no better. They have maintained the pure biblicism of Van Til, and have rejected natural law in such a way as to cede the world to the devil. Whatever your commitments, however noble they started, when the fatal temptation settles, there will always be a route that enables you to retreat to commitment.

Contemporary Reformed Christianity does not want to allow the special revelation of Scripture to be allowed to speak to the unbelieving world. This is their compromise, and North is correct about them. But the exclusion of natural law results in the same temptations toward compromise, but simply enticing a different group of folks, using different bait.

Our Reformed elites don’t want to fight about same sex mirage, for example, because they don’t want Leviticus to apply to the public square. The erstwhile recons don’t want to fight about it because biblical law is our only standard, down here inside our ecclesiastical cubby. Outside is anarchy, so they can do what they want. The difference between the two groups can be summed up in this way — one wants to keep Jesus out of it and the other wants to get Jesus out of it.

But in the world God made, in the world God governs, in the world into which God revealed His Word, things are different. The same God speaks in various ways. He created the world and embedded His character deeply within it. That same God spoke through the holy prophets and apostles. He expects His people to fellowship with Him everywhere they find Him, and they are instructed to find Him everywhere.

So God made the world, and that world reveals His character. God inspired the Old Testament, and the Old Testament reveals His character. God inspired the New Testament, and the New Testament reveals His character. God was present with us in Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ reveals His character. Combine all this with the realization that God’s character does not change, and the need for thoughtful harmonization becomes evident.

In this case, harmonization is easy. Nature teaches us the right to self-defense. The Old Testament assumes the right to self-defense (Ex. 22:3). The New Testament teaches the right to self-defense (2 Cor. 11:32). Jesus Himself teaches the right to self-defense (Luke 22:35-38). The Washington Post denies it, but keep in mind the fact that The Washington Post also denies that God made the world, that God inspired the Old Testament, that God inspired the New Testament, and that Jesus was the Messiah of God.

So with all this said, the sad thing is that we are all still in the Garden. The primeval sin began with our father Adam refusing to protect his wife from an assailant. He refused to do what the Lord Jesus did not refuse to do, which was to crush the serpent’s head. If we take all of God’s revelation together, we should understand that our duty is always to protect the bride. That is constant because God’s character never changes. The central duty is not to evangelize the serpent, the duty is to protect the bride. That is the center.

Now it is quite true that some might assume the right duty with the wrong attitude, not knowing what spirit they are of. A man might seek to protect his wife because of bluster, or bravado, or bloodlust. But this is no reason for others to refrain from doing it, just because the motives can be wrong. The thing to do is to correct the motives. After all, a man who refuses to protect his wife might have ulterior motives as well. He might have what he thinks are high sentiments about the Sermon on the Mount in his mouth and low cowardice in his heart. People doing the right thing in the wrong way can never be an argument against doing the right thing in the right way. Our task is to study the Bible to find out what the right thing is, and then to do our level best to do it while guarding our hearts.

A man’s duty is always to protect his bride. Of course, if he is steeped in reading how God tells His stories, there will be times when he will be able to break a bone with a word (Prov. 25:15). Other times he may accomplish it through deception (Gen. 12:13). In that ancient world, the brother of a beautiful woman had leverage, while the husband of a beautiful woman had none. Yet other times a godly man will protect his wife through main battle (Neh. 4:14). There are different ways to do it, but assuming the responsibility to attempt it is what it means to be a husband. Jesus did it by dying, and sometimes He has faithful servants who do it by killing. But all true husbands do it.

He is not always promised success. Outcomes are always with God, but that does not change the fact that duties are always with us. So when an overwhelming force comes against a man and his wife, that man’s responsibility is to put whatever strength he has in between that threat and his wife.

King Edmund put it this way with regard to his sister:

“As to that, I do not doubt that every one of us would sell our lives dearly in the gate and they would not come at the Queen but over our dead bodies” (The Horse and His Boy, p. 70).

As Lewis points out elsewhere in several of his essays, ungodly violence really is an ongoing spiritual affliction. He also notes that there are two basic ways that the Church has attempted to deal with the problem of violence — those two ways being pacifism and chivalry. Lewis grants that chivalry has not been entirely successful in ameliorating the violence, acknowledging that there have been lamentable failures. But he also points out that with regard to the intended goals chivalry far surpassed its sister solution. He observed that pacifism should not be considered as a nurse for all the typhoid patients, but as more of a carrier . . . like Typhoid Mary.

So chivalry for my money. But this brings us full circle. Chivalry comes tucked away at the bottom of a package, and that package is called Christendom. We cannot have chivalry without Jesus Christ, without the prophets and apostles, without the severe and abrupt reminders brought to us by mother nature, without tradition and Christian history, without the historicity of Genesis, and without the reality of the final judgment before the Great White Throne.

And apart from chivalry, we will have nothing but endless violence. That violence will not just be endless — the added secularist bonus is that it will also be pointless.

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AJ
AJ
8 years ago

I’m surprised you mention Gen 12 as a positive example. Isn’t Abram giving up his wife to save his own skin, just like Lot will attempt with his daughters? Based on the result, his influence as a brother didn’t help all that much.

Matthew S
Matthew S
8 years ago
Reply to  AJ

Verse 13 Abram says that his life being spared would be for Sarai’s “sake.” I don’t think Abram was being a lying coward here, but he was on to something. Abram is also never condemned, but the pharaoh is, and he did this twice. If they killed Abram then Sarai would have no way out. The pharaoh was a pagan and Abram didn’t expect him to have regard for marriage or human life. Abram likely knew that God was going to protect them through Abram’s deception. He deceived the pharaoh twice and God rescued Sarai the same way twice, and… Read more »

AJ
AJ
8 years ago
Reply to  Matthew S

But that’s the thing — God doesn’t protect them through the deception; He has to intervene to prevent Sarah from being lost to pagans – both here and in Gen. 20. In Gen. 20:9-10, Abimelech accuses Abraham of committing wrong. God punishes the pagan kings for taking Sarah, not because they should have known better, but because of His covenant with Abraham. Abimelech likewise accuses Isaac of wrongdoing in Gen. 26. In any case, I don’t see how his deception actually accomplished anything beneficial when his wife is taken into the houses (herum?) of these pagan kings. Abraham stays alive… Read more »

Luke Pride
8 years ago
Reply to  AJ

Gentleman, the passage at first hearing to us sounds like Abram was wrong. However, the lack of judgement upon him and the realization that deception is not in and of itself wrong (and, as we see later, Abram was BOTH brother and husband, and he may have simply been saying which of the two roles should be emphasized) should at least cause us to wonder if we are reading our culture into it. If I were exegeting the passage, I think I would point out that the focus is on what happens to Pharoah after taking Sarai as a demonstration… Read more »

ME
ME
8 years ago
Reply to  AJ

That can be a really fascinating debate. There is so much going on in that passage. The bible says “Say you are my
sister, so that I will be treated well for your sake and my life will
be spared because of you.” I always thought Abram was being rather wise, attempting to create the best possible outcome for all. He does say, “so that I will be treated well for your sake.” His survival is also important to Sarah, without him she’ll be left with the Pharaoh.

JohnM
JohnM
8 years ago

I’m not really buying “The primeval sin began with our father Adam refusing to protect his wife from an assailant.”. It simply is not what the words in Genesis say. Neither do I need that interpretation to tell me I should try to protect my wife.

AMA
AMA
8 years ago
Reply to  JohnM

How do you figure? Genesis 3 says that Adam was with Eve when she ate the fruit of the tree.

The Serpent was there, not as a purely physical assailant, but nonetheless one whose advice would lead to Eve’s death. Adam absolutely should have stepped in during the Serpent’s attempt to beguile his wife. His failure to protect his wife and his willingness to partake in the sin was their (and our) undoing.

JohnM
JohnM
8 years ago
Reply to  AMA

I don’t figure by reading into the text. In order for us to legitimately say sin began with Adam refusing to protect Eve scripture would have to say sin began with Adam refusing to protect Eve; scripture does not say that. I’m a little surprised to see an unabashed patriarchist like Doug Wilson endorse a notion typically embraced by complementarians, but I suppose his motives are different than theirs.

Matthew S
Matthew S
8 years ago
Reply to  JohnM

Scripture does say that the second Adam rescued his bride from the serpent, something Adam obviously didn’t do. Even if you don’t think that was Adam’s main sin, he obviously should have protected his bride from the serpent the same way Jesus did. Adam stood by while his wife ate death upon herself. Jesus did the exact opposite, and that is stated explicitly in the New Testament. I would call that a New Testament exposition of Genesis 3, hardly reading into the text.

JohnM
JohnM
8 years ago
Reply to  Matthew S

It is not as uambiguous as you think that Adam was even present through the entire event recorded in Genesis 3. He might have been, but there are expositors who are not so sure “her husband with her” indicates that. Whether he was or was not, again, Genesis simply does not say sin began with Adam failing to protect Eve. Genesis and the Apostle Paul say it began with Eve being deceived and then transgressing, followed by Adam’s transgression. Even if you think Adam did sin by failing to prevent the thing, if you also think it was not “Adam’s… Read more »

PerfectHold
PerfectHold
8 years ago
Reply to  Matthew S

We can agree that the notion of Adam failing to protect his wife is totally absent from the text’s presentation. But, by way of explanation, Adam did point out to God Himself that the woman He gave to Adam did give the fruit to Adam, & he did eat. And did God call Adam on the carpet for passing the buck? — No! Why not? — because there was no blame shifting by Adam. Adam told the noble, salvific truth. He freely took upon himself the sin of his wife, owning her & her sin as given to himself —… Read more »

AMA
AMA
8 years ago
Reply to  JohnM

You don’t have to read into the text, John. Just read it.

1. Was Adam with Eve when she sinned? Yes.
2. Could he have intervened and stopped her? Yes.
3. Was his failure to intervene sinful? Yes.

You can debate that last answer, but the first two are incontrovertibly true. The answer to the third question depends on whether you believe that husbands are to love their wives as Christ loves the Church, intervening on her behalf.

JohnM
JohnM
8 years ago
Reply to  AMA

See my response to Matthew S below. See also the last sentence of my first post on the topic, above.

PerfectHold
PerfectHold
8 years ago
Reply to  AMA

“Was Adam with Eve when she sinned? Yes”

“she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her” — Step 1, She took; … lag time?? — don’t know …

Step 2, She ate; … then lag time??? — not told (so maybe not important!)
Step 3, She gave.

You’ve read into the history that it is all conflated to one momentary event.
You might be right.
If you are right — the author shows little interest in casting the initial blame on Adam.

Christopher Casey
Christopher Casey
8 years ago
Reply to  JohnM

“I’m a little surprised to see an unabashed patriarchist like Doug Wilson endorse a notion typically embraced by complementarians”
I thought Doug was a complemetarian.

JohnM
JohnM
8 years ago

If he wants to own the label he can speak up, but he doesn’t flow with mainstream of those who claim it.

PerfectHold
PerfectHold
8 years ago

What if Adam flew into the icy sea of death to surround his colding bride with his own impotent arms, praying their childrens’ children’s daughter would bear a new Husband for them all?

What if Adam is our first dragon slayer?

PerfectHold
PerfectHold
8 years ago

Did Calvin release his ministerial office?

And however could a shepherd quite his duty?

andrewlohr
andrewlohr
8 years ago
Reply to  PerfectHold

However influential in Geneva, Calvin wasn’t a magistrate. He couldn’t even talk the magistrates into weekly communion (tho I think different churches had different schedules for their quarterly communions.)

andrewlohr
andrewlohr
8 years ago

Teach all the ethnic groups to obey all My orders–Jesus in Mt 28. Not, I’ll do this when I come back.

Antecho
Antecho
8 years ago

Doug, if “heirs of the reconstructionists” would inductively use more supporting examples in their reasoning of how per Ro 2:14; 1:20,19 Gentiles “instinctively” are (to be) consistent with God’s word (or besides sociological examples, even referencing other observable natural phenomena such as in fields of physiology, biochemistry, etc. as examples), would that remedy your critique of how “heirs of the reconstructionists” “have maintained the pure biblicism of Van Til, and have rejected natural law in such a way as to cede the world to the devil”?

ashv
ashv
8 years ago

Amen. Our understanding of the structure of both church and state must be biblically informed to have a well-ordered society.

As a good example of this, I recommend this recent article on “The Solemnity of Christ the President”: https://arkansasreactionary.wordpress.com/2015/11/22/the-solemnity-of-christ-the-president/

Malachi
Malachi
8 years ago
Reply to  ashv

So…serious question, ashv: Why DO we revere representative republics over monarchies? When all the great Fathers of the Faith were either patriarchs, prophets, or kings; when God is our Father and Christ is our King…why did the founders of our country fight so strongly for a republic, patterned at least in part after the Roman model? Why does the Presbyterian form of church government, which parallels representative government, appeal so much to us…vs. episcopal or catholic church government, which parallels monarchy?

I pondered this some time ago but gave up on it. You’ve pulled it to the front again. Thanks?

ashv
ashv
8 years ago
Reply to  Malachi

Good question. Some blame it on those Puritans in the English Parliament who got too big for their britches and cut off a king’s head. Others blame Enlightenment rationalism and its admiration of Greco-Roman society. Either way I think it’s a big mistake to treat republics as morally superior to monarchies, even if they have worked at certain places and times. (I’m not strongly biased about presbyterian vs episcopal forms of church government, since neither has proven particularly good or bad at preserving unity and purity.)

Malachi
Malachi
8 years ago
Reply to  ashv

Kind of what I had been pondering…literally any form of government CAN work, if the folks in charge/control/power are godly and God-fearing in their governance. Perhaps none is morally superior to another?

So I’m still left with the question: “What is the best (i.e.; the most Godly…not the most pragmatic) form of civil government men could institute, given all that we know of God’s Word, of historical examples and experiments, and given man’s sinful nature?
What do you think that would look like, ’cause I never reached an answer…is it even possible to conclude?

ashv
ashv
8 years ago
Reply to  Malachi

I don’t think there’s a single answer — it depends on population size, composition, and culture more than anything so far as I can tell. Ultimately governments must be judged by their effectiveness at upholding justice and capacity for being responsible for its actions, not any abstract principle of organization. Proper government for a society of clannish inbred Middle Easterners probably looks very different from proper government for a society of civic-minded Northwest Europeans. Trial by jury was likely a good choice for 19th century England, and likely not a good choice for Singapore. As Alexander Pope put it: “For… Read more »

Malachi
Malachi
8 years ago
Reply to  ashv

And that, ashv, was also my conclusion of the matter. Interesting.

So if you and I were able to help create a new country, would we establish a monarchy? And how would he get to be king, then? <–Yes, the Monty Python script is now flowing through my head… :-)

ashv
ashv
8 years ago
Reply to  Malachi

Today he’s probably be called “CEO” or “Governor” or perhaps even “President” :)

I figure our best bet is to start small. Raise our kids to love God and love their families. Find men in our churches who love the truth and work with them to take care of our communities. Connect with people elsewhere doing the same — and pray, and wait.

Malachi
Malachi
8 years ago
Reply to  ashv

I think–nay, I’m convinced–I would enjoy a beer (or single-malt scotch), a pipe, and a fireplace with your conversation at my side.

ashv
ashv
8 years ago
Reply to  Malachi

And let’s be honest — at this point, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords would be an improvement on what we’ve got.

Victoryrider
Victoryrider
8 years ago

“When we have a small isolated church and a pagan and unbelieving world all around, like Corinth in the first century,” Really? 80% of Americans are Christians, you can’t throw a rock in most towns without hitting a Church. Over 90% of our Representatives are Christians, don’t be blaming pagans.

Mark Braivo
8 years ago
Reply to  Victoryrider

There is a significant difference between identifying as a Christian and actually believing it in your heart. Most Americans ‘identify’ as Christian but hold largely secular views.

ashv
ashv
8 years ago
Reply to  Victoryrider

This is subjunctive, descriptive of a hypothetical situation, and I agree it’s not exactly what we have now. Certainly a plurality, and arguably a majority, of USA’s subjects are Christian — but the ruling elite are solidly anti-Christian. Elected “representatives” are largely ornamental and exist to give legitimacy to those actually holding the reins of power. So yes, at the moment I think we certainly can blame pagans — though we arrived at this sorry state due to foolishness and weakness in the church started several generations ago and not yet repented of.

Malachi
Malachi
8 years ago
Reply to  Victoryrider

You also can’t throw a rock in most towns without hitting a McDonald’s…does that mean most folks are cheeseburgers?

ME
ME
8 years ago

This was well said. Something that fits in here, Adam is given dominion, he names the animals, he even names his wife Eve. Dominion denotes authority which also always means responsibility. So in being given dominion, Adam is supposed to protect his wife. For whatever reason he doesn’t and he attempts to evade responsibility by first trying to blame Eve, “this woman you gave me,” an accusation that also blames God Himself. Apparently God disagrees, because Adam is held accountable. That same problem is something you still see in the world today, everyone wants status, power, authority, dominion, but few… Read more »

Ben
Ben
8 years ago

It seems contradictory to assert that the government’s only job should be to wield the sword against evildoers yet still say that marriage should be a public, i.e. government-endorsed institution.

Also, I would recommend not using the term anarchy as a synonym for lawlessness. You of course know that’s not what it means in the Greek.

ashv
ashv
8 years ago
Reply to  Ben

If your understanding of “public” is identical to “government-endorsed”, you have accepted one of the chief tenets of liberalism.

Ben
Ben
8 years ago
Reply to  ashv

That’s not my view. I was trying to ascertain whether it was his. The words “public” and “private” are often used to refer to government institutions and voluntary institutions, respectively.

ashv
ashv
8 years ago
Reply to  Ben

The pertinent question is: who adjudicates divorce and inheritance disputes? According to what rules?

Ben
Ben
8 years ago
Reply to  ashv

According to the rules outlined in the contract. There’s no reason to believe marriage disputes couldn’t be handled like any other contract dispute. In a free society there would be private companies who would specialize in dispute resolution, and these series of decisions would, over time, come to form something that might be described as a “common law” of marriage. Anarchy is not lawlessness, only the rejection of rigid, random statutory law enforced at gunpoint upon those who never agreed to the system being imposed upon them.

ashv
ashv
8 years ago
Reply to  Ben

This is a fantasy that ignores many significant aspects of society.

Ben
Ben
8 years ago
Reply to  ashv

We liberals only deal with fantasy, never reality. I thought you knew that!

Malachi
Malachi
8 years ago
Reply to  Ben

The literal meaning of anarchy in the Greek is “lack of a leader,” and is universally translated “without law” or “lawless” in every English dictionary I could find. What compels you to recommend otherwise?

Ben
Ben
8 years ago
Reply to  Malachi

Anarchy is not lawlessness, only the rejection of rigid, random statutory law enforced at gunpoint upon those who never agreed to participate in such a system in the first place. So yes, technically, it can refer to a society without laws, but only statutory laws. Common law is a concept that is hard for modern westerners to grasp, as we are only familiar with a centralized, force-based system of statutory law, but it has existed at various times in history and must not be ignored as irrational and impractical.

Malachi
Malachi
8 years ago
Reply to  Ben

If your intent is to posit a “common law” solution to our “random statutory law” system, then we can talk about that, but you should realize that it does you no favors to Clintonize the word anarchy. Anarchy really, really, really does mean “lawlessness” despite your recommendations to the contrary.

Ben
Ben
8 years ago
Reply to  Malachi

an = without
arkhos = ruler (not “rules” or “laws”)

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=anarchy&allowed_in_frame=0

Malachi
Malachi
8 years ago
Reply to  Ben

Yes, yes…I already acknowledged that.

And telephone comes from the Greek “tele” meaning “far” and “phonos” meaning “voice or sound.” So, you can persist in your anarchic ways all you want in saying that a telephone really is not an electronic device for long-distance communication, since a telephone is actually a “far sound.”

And I will persist in saying that anarchy, despite the literal Greek meanings of its constituent pieces, still means today what everyone who is not an egghead thinks it means–lawlessness.

RFB
RFB
8 years ago

“A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who stripped him and were beating him when a modern evangelical, as he journeyed, came to where he was, and when he saw the savage beating occurring, said sorry dude, I just do EMS, yer on your own…”

"A" dad
"A" dad
8 years ago

“The central duty is not to evangelize the serpent, the duty is to protect the bride. That is the center.”

You know Doug, your Lord often spoke in parables, which were often shorter, and managed to cover all the key points.

If someone is “too clever by half”, they have done a whole and gone another half beyond that.

Luke Pride
8 years ago

I’ve become more New Covenant as years have gone on, even as I’ve been at a Reformed Seminary. However, I am exegetically still more with Wilson than with Piper here. Care is needed to avoid assuming that a New Covenanter (or those who lean that way) they will dismiss the Old Testament examples. Saying that the Sinai Covenant is no longer the expression of God’s will believers are to follow is far removed from saying that there is not an objective morality which the Sinai covenant was based on, and at least an expression of the eternal morality. We have… Read more »

Mark Mcculley
Mark Mcculley
8 years ago

Matthew J Tuininga —-“One of the ways in which modern advocates could strengthen the two kingdoms doctrine is by further emphasizing and clarifying its fundamentally eschatological character, particularly in light of the fact that the two kingdoms are often confused with two spheres into which life is to be divided. It may be that part of the problem is a conflation of the two kingdoms doctrine with Abraham Kuyper’s concept of sphere sovereignty.” MT—“Kuyper’s spheres denote different areas into which human life under Christ’s lordship are to be divided. The spheres do not designate the two advents distinction between this… Read more »

Steve Perry
Steve Perry
8 years ago

“The Primeval sin began with our father Adam refusing to protect his wife from an assailant.” The primeval sin was not committed against Eve. It was committed against God. “Because you have harkened unto the voice of your wife.” With direct revelation not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, Adam’s sin was to question God’s transcendence, His headship. Failing to protect Eve, was a result of that sin.

andrewlohr
andrewlohr
8 years ago

Handgun diversity? Constitution Article 1 Sec 8 give Congress the power to regulate ‘letters of marque and reprisal,’ which are licenses to operate private warships–privateers–at a time when warships were the most technologically sophisticated weapon systems on earth. (OK, on water).

Urthman
Urthman
8 years ago

But aren’t you bothered at all by the complete lack if examples in the New Testament of Our Lord, the Apostles, or any of the first Christians using violence defensively or for any other reason? Who do you suppose was the first Christian to kill someone?

Malachi
Malachi
8 years ago
Reply to  Urthman

Jesus violently drove money changers out of the temple, thus defending God’s House. Peter violently sliced off a guard’s ear, thus defending Christ from capture. There are others… But why do you ask? Are you bothered by the blood-and-guts of the Old Testament, by the prolific killing that God ordained and commanded? Are you suggesting that the New Testament, being cuddly by comparison, indicates a change in our God? Rather than ask who was the first Christian to kill someone (his name was Archibald, btw), perhaps you should ask why the geo-political context surrounding the 1st-century Church made it a… Read more »

Urthman
Urthman
8 years ago
Reply to  Malachi

Which Archibald are you referring to?

Malachi
Malachi
8 years ago
Reply to  Urthman

Archibald Kleindstopfer, of course, born c. 95 AD, executed in 151 AD outside of Venice. History records that Roman soldiers were using Archibald’s house as a base of operations for their invasion of the Gallic barbarians northward, and one of the soldiers tried to molest Archibald’s wife under pretense of “Roman right of quartering.” The husband killed the soldier while defending the purity of his wife, Bethesda, and was gutted the next day. In a funky twist of fate, a second Roman soldier carried out the evil act anyway, and Bethesda conceived the bastard child that was the direct ancestor… Read more »

Urthman
Urthman
8 years ago
Reply to  Malachi

Ha. Thats a fair point. We know so little about that era it doesn’t make much sense for me to hang much on conjectures about what Christians supposedly did or didn’t do in the first few centuries.

Jonathan
Jonathan
8 years ago
Reply to  Malachi

Christ did not act in violence towards any of the men in the temple. In 3 gospels it doesn’t even mention a whip, in the 4th it only mentions him using the whip against the animals (which is why he had to tell the dove-sellers to leave, they weren’t chasing their animals down).

And when Peter sliced off the guard’s ear, Jesus immediately condemned his actions, not just in the moment but in all-encompassing language. “All who live by the sword will die by the sword.”

katecho
katecho
8 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan wrote: Christ did not act in violence towards any of the men in the temple. Jonathan attempts to clean up Christ’s reputation to make Him more “Christ-like”. Even if we grant the ambiguity of whether the whip actually struck any man or animal, all of the Gospels indicate that Jesus drove out the money changers and merchants. Does Jonathan suppose that they all voluntarily left the temple court? That’s not what the text says. Tables, and benches, and coins went flying, and those people were expelled against their wishes. The idea that this was a tranquil, non-violent encounter is… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
8 years ago
Reply to  katecho

You killed that strawman good and dead.

I hope those who paint a picture of a “tranquil” Christ will one day find this post and thank you for correcting them. Whoever they are.

katecho
katecho
8 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan wrote: Christ did not act in violence towards any of the men in the temple. I’m glad that Jonathan is in agreement about the strawiness of his claim. I believe this particular strawman was already DOA, but it’s a good exercise to show why it is dead. A passive, zealless, non-violent, non-angry Jesus is not the Christ of Scripture. The Christ of Scripture is a warrior armed for battle, who fills valleys with corpses. His own lamb-like slaughter was the chapter that proved His authority to ride the battle horse. His battle horse is white. Again, this does not… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
8 years ago
Reply to  katecho

katecho, I don’t know why you want to waste time playing games. Christ did not act in violence towards the men in the temple. He drove out the animals, upturned the tables, and asked the dove-sellers to leave. Christ is also not passive, zealless, or non-angry. These two claims are obviously not mutualy exclusive. Nothing that Christ does on Judgment Day (which differs entirely from his role in his human life on Earth, as he said, he came not to judge, but to save), has anything to do with proper Christian behavior. There are clearly things that God has reserved… Read more »

katecho
katecho
8 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan wrote: Christ did not act in violence towards the men in the temple. He drove out the animals, upturned the tables, and asked the dove-sellers to leave. Jonathan persists in his error, twisting the text in a dangerous fashion. The Gospels do not say that Jesus merely drove out the animals. Even if we granted Jonathan’s self-serving and squinting interpretation of the target of the whip in the Gospel of John (which I don’t), all of the other three Gospels explicitly say that Jesus drove out the merchants: And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
8 years ago
Reply to  katecho

Thank you for quoting me. That kept the discussion more on-target and in reference to what I actually said. What actions are reserved for God alone, and not to be taken here on Earth? Well, quite clearly, a form of judgement. This is not the time to seperate between the weeds and the wheat. Jesus, Paul, and James all tell us to “judge not” (Matthew 7:1-5/Luke 6:37-42 and James 4:11-12 directly; see also Romans 2:1-11, 14:10-19 by implication), and that now is not the appropriate time for human judgement to be carried out against humans (1 Corinthians 4:4-5; Matthew 13:24-30;… Read more »

Evan
Evan
8 years ago
Reply to  Urthman

“But aren’t you bothered at all by the complete lack if examples in the New Testament of Our Lord”

Not at all, guns weren’t invented yet.

Rob Steele
Rob Steele
8 years ago
Reply to  Urthman

Let us not forget the cross. Ugly, ugly violence the world has not seen the like of since. God used it. He thought it up and planned it from the beginning. He crushed the serpent’s head by crushing Jesus. Jesus will eventually crush all his enemies like grapes. Righteous violence is a thing.

Jonathan
Jonathan
8 years ago
Reply to  Rob Steele

The men who used the cross were evil. God is so wise he can use the actions of evil men to complete his own purposes. But don’t believe for a second that the men who nailed Jesus to a cross were being righteous be doing so, or that anyone since has EVER acted righteously by copying them.

Dunsworth
Dunsworth
8 years ago
Reply to  Urthman

First one we know of was Abraham.

Frank_in_Spokane
Frank_in_Spokane
8 years ago
Reply to  Urthman

The New Testament “lacks” all kinds of examples of various moral and legal questions.

Such case law is to be found in the OT, and Jesus upheld its validity in Matthew 5.

Joe Clemmer
Joe Clemmer
8 years ago

I’m afraid (as a soon to be seminary student and fellow worker in the ministry) that right or not the format in which this is presented is virtually unintelligible from paragraph from the other. I like Doug but I’m afraid outside pastors or some of the people at his church are the only people that can understand him. Here is an anology . If you asked me to explain 2+2=4 . I would show you your own hands explain 1, 2, 3, 4. Show you how putting two and two together equals 4. Now Doug would do this. He would… Read more »

katecho
katecho
8 years ago
Reply to  Joe Clemmer

If Clemmer is really concerned about connecting with, and loving others, first, then he needs to show us what he means. Right now, it looks like insults to Wilson’s gifts and ministry, which is hardly a loving correction. Calling Wilson clueless in connecting with a public audience just smacks of bitterness, envy, and arrogant pride. Doug challenged his audience in the Sexual by Design lectures to walk-the-talk when it comes to their tolerance mantra. I would challenge Clemmer to show us that he genuinely cares, first of all, about love and relationship. Demonstrate what that looks like when interacting on… Read more »

Christopher Casey
Christopher Casey
8 years ago
Reply to  Joe Clemmer

I have said, and will probably say again that the problem with Doug is that he’s a philosophy major.

Evan
Evan
8 years ago
Reply to  Joe Clemmer

“I just watched his sexual by design series and the q&a and wow. He was right but he didn’t love”

Eh? He’s at a secular university patiently preaching the gospel (all the while bearing all manner of insults). If that isn’t love, what is?