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Commemorating the 242nd Anniversary of the Battle of Trenton, I Suppose


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https://twitter.com/EarnKnowledge/status/1069057049802067968
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soylentg
Member

As to the battle of Trenton… I am not going to take the time to try to verify this, so just take it as being the other extreme or better yet do the research, but when I attended a church that did not celebrate Christmas, this is what was said about that famous crossing: The American patriots, at least for the most part, did not celebrate Christmas and considered it to be a Roman Catholic celebration with pagan origins (Christ-Mass). They took the opportunity for a sneak attack on the Hessian mercenaries, knowing that as good Roman Catholics they would… Read more »

Nathan Smith
Member

Take this with a grain of salt as well: but I read that Christmas didn’t catch on in the American South – especially Appalachia – as it was seen as a Catholic celebration , until after the invention of fireworks. Young people and their fireworks. Then it started out as a excuse to shoot fireworks and sort of “blew up” from that.

Jane
Member

I think the grain of salt is pretty necessary here. Apparently fireworks were used in Europe well before colonial times:

https://www.americanpyro.com/history-of-fireworks

Rick Davis
Guest
Rick Davis

Not my historical forte, but Aug but instinct tells me Hessians would have been Lutherans, not Catholics. Also while the New Englanders, descended from the Pilgrims, may have looked askance at Christmas, Virginian Anglicans like Washington wouldn’t have.

Rick Davis
Guest
Rick Davis

Don’t know where the “Aug” came from. Autocorrect.

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

I would think so too, especially considering how the Brits felt towards Catholics at the time. It does appear that at least one of the Hessian princes who sent troops was a Catholic at least.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/44374623?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents

Jane
Member

I don’t think the meme is intended to represent evil, but bravado.

soylentg
Member

Hard for me to read “bravado” into killing someone in their sleep.

Jane
Member

You might want to take that up with Jael. Sneak attacks are sometimes necessary for the good of those you’re trying to defend, and whether they’re awake or sleeping doesn’t really seem to change the moral calculus that much.

Anyway, I’m speaking of the tone and likely intent of the creator of the meme, not what everyone should think about it.

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

It’s an interesting moral calculus. Makes me wonder even more about the moral calculus of someone who claims that Nelson Mandela was a “thug” and a “bad man” who should have been executed so that he never would have had a chance to rise to power.

JP Stewart
Member

“…I’m tiring of your constant red herrings” – Jonathan

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

For it to be a red herring, I’d have to actually be engaging in an argument. I’m not engaging in the argument about whether or not sneak attacks are justified at all – I’m using the fact that Pastor Wilson obviously feels such attacks are justifiable to make an entirely different point.

A red herring is only a logical fallacy if it’s being used as a red herring, otherwise it’s simply a change of topic.

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
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The Commenter Formerly Known As fp

Jonathan in a nutshell:

Violence is never okay… except when Nelson Mandela or I do it.

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

As I’ve repeatedly stated that I firmly disagree with any use of violence by Nelson Mandela, this is a lie, and I demand an apology. What I have pointed out is the hypocrisy in Pastor Wilson claiming that Nelson Mandela’s use of violence in response to extreme oppression and massacres was unjustified, while he has repeatedly justified the use of violence by Confederates and American revolutionaries, and even stated that high taxes could be a valid excuse for rebellion. Pastor Wilson said that Nelson Mandela was a thug and a bad man, and linked to an article that suggested he… Read more »

Katecho
Member

For someone who has shown himself nearly incapable of accurately representing Wilson, I’m still not sure in what sense Jonathan argues that Mandela was not a “thug”, judicially worthy of a death sentence for his publicly acknowledged involvement in vigilante violence and murder. Mandela was the one who created the active terrorist branch, Spear of the Nation, within the previously passive resistance movement, ANC. Regarding Jonathan’s comparisons to the Civil War, and the War for American Independence, Jonathan has previously seemed unwilling to grant critical distinctions between vigilantism/terrorism and declaration of war, or between civilian and armed casualties. In any… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

For someone who has shown himself nearly incapable of accurately representing Wilson, I’m still not sure in what sense Jonathan argues that Mandela was not a “thug”, judicially worthy of a death sentence for his publicly acknowledged involvement in vigilante violence and murder. Mandela was the one who created the active terrorist branch, Spear of the Nation, within the previously passive resistance movement, ANC. Mandela joined a nonviolent resistance movement against a government that was engaged in massive, crippling oppression of the Black population. He was repeatedly arrested and jailed for these nonviolent actions. The government responded with even greater… Read more »

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
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The Commenter Formerly Known As fp

Jonathan squeaked: …and I demand an apology. Your feeble demands for apologies amuse me. But please do continue… I enjoy a good laugh. That does not render me incapable of identifying hypocrisy when I see it. What about when you don’t see it? You went off on an idiotic tirade about that commie bastard Nelson Mandela (yup, the same terrorist who signed off on the murder of many innocent people… but don’t you dare call him a thug or I’ll demand yet more apologies!), yet when I pointed out that you exempt yourself from your “universal” nonviolence, you were notably… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

Where did Nelson Mandela sign off on the murder of many innocent people? Describe the specific action of violence and exactly how Mandela signed off on it. And if you pick something that happened years after he got tossed into solitary confinement, I’m going to have to assume that you aren’t taking the conversation seriously. Also, you can throw in how Mandela’s actions were more thuggish than, say, those committed by the Revolutionaries in the 1770s or by the Confederates in the 1860s or even by the power structures of the Segregated South in the 1960s. Do you personally believe… Read more »

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
Guest
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp

Where did Nelson Mandela sign off on the murder of many innocent people? This is a stupid question, and I’m not playing this game with you. I will not get entangled in silly arguments with you about the minutiae of what may or may not have happened and exactly when they happened 50 years ago according to what source, just so that you can score a gotcha! on some silly technicality while you try to skate on the larger point. You know damn well Mandela was a communist thug and a murderer. You might as well ask Where did Stalin,… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

Thank you again FP, for showing exactly who you are. That was just about the most obvious use of fake outrage and pretend offense that I’ve ever seen used in order to justify failing to back up an obviously false claim. I’ll quote again, “Operating through a cell structure, MK planned to carry out acts of sabotage that would exert maximum pressure on the government with minimum casualties; they sought to bomb military installations, power plants, telephone lines, and transport links at night, when civilians were not present. Mandela stated that they chose sabotage because it was the least harmful… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

You know damn well Mandela was a communist thug and a murderer. You might as well ask Where did Stalin, Mao, or Pol Pot sign off on the murder of many innocent people…. There is no moral equivalence between Nelson Mandela and Americans fighting in the War of Independence, or the Civil War. I should also add, comparing Nelson Mandela to Stalin/Mao/Pol Pot is completely nonsensical, huge masses were massacred under their leadership, while when Mandela was operating the masses who were getting massacred were being killed by the government forces who were OPPOSING him. Of course, comparing Confederate leadership… Read more »

JohnM
Guest
JohnM

Jane, I’m afraid some people are constitutionally incapable of taking anything with a grain of salt, and your point about tone and likely intent is going to be lost on them. Sometimes they respond by trying to change the subject.

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

Could you describe what the actual tone and likely intent of posting it was?

Would it be in line with suggesting that Washington was a thug and a bad man who really should have been executed for his rebellion and violent actions?

JohnM
Guest
JohnM

Jane already did, and that answers your second question too.

soylentg
Member

Ah, and there’s the rub, …I read the intent of the meme as calling Americans extremely evil for killing someone in their sleep on Christmas and you read the intent as Americans being unwavering in their pursuit of independence. I respect your opinion, but would argue that by not specifying that it was surprise attack on an army of mercenaries, the meme is meant to send the message I suggest. Besides, the fact that Jonathan apparently approves of the meme is pretty good evidence that at least he took the same meaning as I, but of course he agreeing with… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

soylentg, I’m a bit confused as to where you’re putting me into the argument. I don’t “approve” of the meme. Like Jane, I saw it as basically celebrating violent sneak attack killing in a lighthearted way, and Pastor Wilson’s posting of it as sort of approval meant to add levity to the blog. I wanted to contrast how Pastor Wilson sees those sorts of violent sneak attacks as something that can be celebrated by levity, while calling Nelson Mandela a “thug” and a “bad man” for sabotaging government facilities while his people were suffering massacres. Other posters have made clear… Read more »

wackytobeme
Member

David Hackett Fischer’s details of the battle in his book “Washington’s Crossing” dispels the myth of the Germans being drunk. In fact, they had been on high alert for some time which had worn them down, the day of the attack, there was a heavy storm and they let down their guard a bit as they could not see any kind of activity. This 500 pg book details the events leading up to the attack along with the attack and the aftermath. It’s pretty humbling the hardships the Patriots faced to defend their county. There are also details of the… Read more »