Introduction
It is certainly tempting to simply make the case by saying that a fake pandemic should have fake papers to accompany it, but that would be too easy, far too glib. I already have severe critics who struggle with their tendency to be censorious, and that would frankly not help. So I won’t start there.
This really is a challenging subject, and so for those of you who want to study it more thoroughly, I would refer you to some of the things I have written before on related and relevant subjects.
Here is something on black markets. And here is a piece on righteous deception. And another on the propriety of bribing an official into doing his job. Of course, it is a sin to to take bribes, which would be great wickedness (Ex 23:8; Deut. 27:25)—but there are occasions where it is not a sin to give one (Prov. 18:16; 21:14). And then along comes a piece discussing some of the ramifications of Dreher’s Benedict Option, where all of these issues are in play, and with us now living a lot closer to them. So if questions arise in your minds about what I am going to say below, they might well be addressed and answered in these places.
So I am going to sketch where I believe we are in all this, and then I will conclude with seven principles to govern your possible use of fake IDs. You can jump ahead to that spoiler section if you like.
Where We Are Now
Scripture teaches us that deception destroys comity. This is why we are not to bear false witness against our neighbor (Ex. 20:16). We are not to lie to one another (Col. 3:9). Lying is corrosive. But when the Hebrew midwives deceived Pharaoh, they were not destroying any comity—rather, they were recognizing that the comity had already been destroyed by his bloody decree (Ex. 1:16). Someone else had preceded them and destroyed the comity already. This Pharaoh “knew not Joseph,” and wasn’t the midwives who brought about that forgetfulness.
Consequently, the question before the house is whether we are in a comparable situation to the one the midwives faced—whether we live in a time when the comity has already been destroyed. Are we griping our way through a Truman administration, trying to make it to Eisenhower, but with a recognition that we all share basically the same society underneath? Or are we in an orcs and elves situation? Or somewhere between?
In my evaluation, we are not yet in a hot civil war, with shooting and all, but we are in a cold war/civil war, and nothing is more obvious than the fact that we are in a cold war/civil war. The situation is extremely inflamed, and does not show any indication of improving at all.
I bring this up because there is an optical illusion operating here. There will no doubt be a number of conservative evangelicals who will be horrified at what I argue for as lawful below. But I would argue that our differences are not over the ethics of the thing but rather are differences over a question of fact—just how diseased has our culture gotten? These evangelicals don’t have any qualms about Bonhoeffer’s involvement in the plot against Hitler, or over Anne Frank’s refusal to turn herself in, or Brother Andrew smuggling Bibles into closed countries. They wouldn’t object if a man used fake papers to get his family out of Afghanistan right now. But this is America, they think, land of the free and home of the brave.
America. Where Baronelle Stutzman can have her slam dunk religious liberty case go all the way to the Supreme Court and lose there. Where two dudes can get married, and where another dude who works at their company can get fired because he didn’t want to come to their wedding shower. Where Planned Parenthood can chop babies into pieces, and sell the parts, all supported by tax monies, but the person who gets in legal trouble is the reporter who exposed that particular iniquity. Our horrified evangelicals are those who for some reason still believe they are struggling through a Truman administration, a supposition that is contrary to both fact and reason.
So I would point out at the front end that conservative evangelicals generally don’t differ on the ethics of this. The differences would arise in our evaluation of how dire our situation is. Does our situation call for this response yet? My answer to that is yes. And fortunately (but only fortunate for my argument, not for the country), every day that passes here will only serve to reinforce my case. Things really are that dire.
Defiance or Deception?
About 100 million Americans have refused the vaccine. That is a lot. Non-compliance is not something that is tucked away into a few obscure corners. The reasons for this non-compliance are many and variegated—some are anti-vaxxers generally, some are blacks suspicious of government health mandates, some are pro-vaxxers who don’t want to be experimented on, thousands are nurses and doctors who don’t want it, and others are simply public-spirited citizens who noticed how many lies the government has told over the last year and a half. Once the extent of the non-compliance became glaringly obvious, our intelligentsia then decided to make everything better by calling us all morons, idiots, and poltroons. That helped us all see the error of our ways, and we were all very sorrowful about it.
But overarching everything was the obvious and naked nature of the power play that is being run. The Biden regime has already floated the idea of restricting interstate travel for the unvaccinated, and how would you do that without “papers please” checkpoints? Checkpoints everywhere a road passes from North Dakota into South Dakota. Don’t tell me I have a feverish imagination—I wasn’t the one who brought it up. Bans on interstate travel for the unvaccinated wasn’t my idea.
If you don’t see the power play that is being run, and which is the central point of all of this, that is because the power play has already been run on you, and has already worked. You have already been digested, and so I am not writing any of this for you.
Runaway Truck Ramps
Now at the same time I suspect that the maestros who orchestrated this global panic, and all for nefarious purposes of their own, have gotten themselves into a bit of a tight spot.
Just a few miles south of where we live here in Moscow, there is a big altitude drop of about 2000 feet down into Lewiston. That means there is a long, steep grade down the side of the hill, and periodically along the way are curated gravel ramps for trucks to plow into after their brakes have gone out. Truck drivers are helpfully reminded through the signage that there is no charge for availing oneself of this option when needed.
Now the powers that be arranged for the brakes of our societal truck to go out, and all they needed to do was to use the appropriate gravel ramp, and then be acclaimed as heroes for having saved the day. “Here’s the vaccine, ta da, and isn’t it great? Aren’t we great?” All their new controls would have been in place, which they had successfully used in the lock downs and masking orders and whatnot, and then they could wait just a bit before rolling out the next big manufactured crisis (rhymes with climb it)—in which they could exercise all their new-found powers. They could then, at their leisure, pour all their new mandates over our ungrateful heads. All they would have to do is pace themselves.
But their problem was that they spooked everybody way too well, and so we just blew by the last escape ramp. It turns out that the panic porn is addictive just like other forms of porn are. Some people need to be scared, and they need to wear masks, and they need to feel all trembly in the knees. So we are now confronted with a very long line of VARIANTS, which will also be as deadly as the FIRST ONE, which is to say, not very. But in the meantime the Kings of Science have successfully persuaded millions of people that it is necessary to ACT as though these variants were way DEADLIER. And so, as I have recently observed MYSELF, the gullible will stroll through town, all by themselves, on a sunny day in August, with a MASK ON, acting as though that might even be an approximation of reasonable behavior. Sorry about that caps thing. I am DONE.
But keeping all the normal people living in a constant state of emergency is not tenable, as a brief glance at New York and Los Angeles (or way to go, Melbourne) will tell you. There will be a pile up of some sort at the bottom of the grade.
Or . . .
Mudslide or Meltdown
I do not know the future, and so I am not predicting anything specific here. But I think we can discern what the broad and basic options are. I think we are at the place where there will either be a large scale and successful revolt, or there will be a large scale catastrophe of an epic magnitude.
If there is a successful revolt, it will likely show up in places like the California recall election, the election audit battles, and of course the midterms. The party out of power generally registers gains in the midterms, and this year that prospect may be something of an understatement. But if it is to do any good, it can’t be just any old landslide—it will have to be a massive mudslide involving half the mountain. To do any good, it will have to be the kind of thing that makes Mitt Romney put a Gadsden flag decal on his pick-up truck in order to claim that he was with the people all along. And if this kind of thing happens, then there is a better than even chance that Trump declares his candidacy for the presidency in 2024, just to keep things festive. I am not cheer-leading here, just observing. And if you get a chance, make sure to read The Revolt of the Public.
And sticking to the theme of this post, if something like this happens, then the issue of faking vaccine papers will be made moot. You won’t have to worry about it.
The other option is that the current pilots will be able to fly this thing into the side of the mountain before we get the cockpit battered open. They have proven themselves adept at remaining in power this long, and they could well hang on to power way past the point of no return. If that happens, then, well, there will be no returning. We won’t all die, but we will be living in shattered enclaves in what used to be a very different world. We will have to make our decisions about what to do then based on the situation on the ground, taking into account the large smoking craters, the over-sized scorpions that live down in them, the clouds the color of antifreeze that waft just above our heads, and the latest edicts from Kamala Harris, erstwhile-president-for-life—with Obama behind her, pulling the wires. But that’s another post.
If anything like that happens, then fake vaccine papers or IDs might well be necessary if you want to drive over into Oregon, and so check with me. I might know a guy.
Seven Principles Regarding Fake IDs
I do realize that the subject is enormous, and that a lot is involved in it. But I also realize that an enormity is being thrust on us. Believing Christians have three basic options—compliance, non-compliance with a guilty conscience, and non-compliance with a clean conscience. I am urging you all to the third option, and I believe that these principles below can help with that.
So with that said, here are seven principles to help you navigate all of this.
First, if you are in a position to resist openly, do that. Don’t go straight to the fake documentation. If at all possible, resist openly, in concert with any others in your same position. Sen. Rand Paul is exactly correct—however tyrannical they are in their hearts, they can’t arrest everybody. If massive numbers of people simply refuse to take the vaccine, there is nothing they can do. Better yet, for example, if thousands of nurses in a hospital system simply refuse to take the vaccine, there is nothing they can do. This kind of open “strike” is much to be preferred, especially in the medical field. If they isolate one nurse, and demand that she take the vaccine or get fired, they’ve got her. But if 300 nurses say no thanks, and everybody knows about it, they’ve got the hospital.
This is not rebellion against lawful authority. This would be an example of a free people refusing to go along with their own enslavement.
Second, if you are not in a position to resist openly, then feel free before God to resist in this clandestine way. This will get you through your particular moment, and it also has the effect of helping to make all the different kinds of vaccine IDs into a joke. If that happens, there will be demands for a national vaccine ID, and that should be relatively easy to prevent Congress from adopting it—even in this Congress. And any controversy that would escalate up to a national vaccine ID battle would likely not be joined until the next Congress, when the odds will likely be much better.
Third, the legitimacy of using such IDs is not limited to gospel issues only. Don’t assume that you could only use such an ID if you were engaged in smuggling Bibles into Connecticut or New York City. These are liberty issues, and any kind of lawful liberty is never a trifle. That said, rank the situations where you would be willing to go this route in order of importance, starting with gospel and worship, then your livelihood, then buying groceries, and so on, down to which restaurant you go to on your anniversary. Just go to the restaurant that doesn’t check IDs, and enjoy your date
Fourth, the ethics of the thing are clear enough, meaning that you can be right with God and use a fake vaccine ID. But that doesn’t mean you should risk going to the federal penitentiary in order to take your family to Disneyland. There are wisdom issues involved also, and so you should do a reasonable cost/benefit analysis with regard to whatever it is you are doing. But if nobody at the ball game cares about whether your ID is genuine or not, and they are just going through a formality at the gate, go ahead. You probably could use the practice.
Fifth, if you are a Christian elder or pastor, and you can’t see your way clear to do this kind of thing yourself, at least have the decency not to rat out Christians who do have that liberty in their conscience. In other words, do not even think about requiring vaccine IDs in order to come to church, and do not dare to discipline one of your members who uses fake ID in order to retain his ability to feed his family. You don’t want to be the kind of pastor who would discipline a church member for using fake papers to get his family away from the Taliban. So if you don’t ever want to be that kind of a Christian leader, then don’t start becoming that kind of leader now.
Sixth, don’t be a chump, meaning that you shouldn’t have your cousin draw you a fake ID on the back of a napkin. If you are going to use a fake ID, then don’t settle for less. Use only the best. Use only genuine fake IDs.
Seventh, imagine yourself telling stories to your great grandchildren. Imagine that this nightmare period is past, and the true nature of “the troubles” has become obvious to all. Behave in such a way now as that you will not be ashamed to talk about it afterwards. If we win this thing, make sure you have some good stories. And just for the record, resigning from Hitler Youth the moment it was safe to do so does not constitute a good story.
Comments Open
I am going to open the comments on this one because I suspect there may be more than a few comments and questions, and I don’t want to clog up the letters feature tomorrow.
Third paragraph, “Righteous Deception” is not a working link.
Maybe this one? https://dougwils.com/books-and-culture/s7-engaging-the-culture/a-brief-defense-of-righteous-video-sting-operations.html
Nice!
Thanks, fixed.
Were you able to fix this?
Didn’t think so.
I love this idea. The ones I’ve seen certainly look easy enough to fake, and I’ve never seen any real scrutiny towards any of this stuff. We need an easy way to get hooked up, though.
yes…. would be so nice to find others in our same area who have the same worldview.
Laurel, there may be others in your area. Where do you live?
I did see a news story recently about a father and son arrested in an airport for using fake vaccine ID’s…
There was a couple in Hawaii with fake vaxx cards for themselves and their two kids. Luckily for them, the kids were too young to need vaxx cards so the fine was only $8000. I haven’t been able to find an article explaining how the authorities knew the cards were fake.
The fact that they had vaxx cards for those to young to have gotten the vaccine might have been a tip off.
.
There was a California naturopathic doctor who has been charged with wire fraud and making false health care statements due to a scheme to provide her patients with false vaccine cards.
And a Texas soldier who was selling vaccine cards and charged with possession of US government property (I guess that means he had acquired real blanks somewhere?).
Federal crimes in both cases.
U.S. Government Property? What, for not dummying out the CDC logo?
That’s pathetic.
I think it’s always been true (and understandable) that stealing federal government documentation and distributing it to others is considered the theft of government property. Same as if you were stealing blank passports to sell on the black market.
Wisconsin area
RE: Principle #4 of 7: (if nobody cares whether your id is genuine or not) Had to go thru a courthouse metal detector to get to grandson’s adoption last week. As we were passing thru, seemingly as an afterthought, the guard said “Are you vaccinated?” As my befuddled mind was fuddling with an answer, my nonvaxxed wife said “Yes”, and we let that be our answered as we followed her on our way. When we got out of earshot, she looked at us all and said, “Mumps, polio, flu. They didn’t ask which kind, did they?” Keep that one in… Read more »
gonna have to disagree with you on things working out as a stamp of approval from God….. That is not a healthy way of reading through Genesis in my opinion
Great point James…I resonate with his wife’s answer/thinking… but as a principle of life, providence is not an accurate indicator of God’s will, right? (about 10 comments down out of 200+ … not sure if I will make it to the end or not :)
Do you understand Abraham to be sinning in those passages?
Agree with you James.
I agree that Abraham’s case can be misrepresented, but the problem is more with him handing over his wife to save his own life instead of protecting her with his own life.
Other than that, so encouraged by your wife’s attitude!
I think it’s very possible that Abraham knew, like he did with putting Isaac on the altar, that he would get his wife back unharmed.
This is totally different than Abraham. God told Abraham specifically what He was going to do for him in the future. It’s not that it wasn’t a life-or-death situation, but that Abraham wasn’t acting in faith that God was going to come through on His promise. If God were to reveal to you that a) you didn’t have to get vaccinated and that b) He was going to do something great in your life even if someone threatens you re: vaccination, then when the security guard asks you, “Are you vaccinated?” You could answer, “No” with both a clean conscience… Read more »
Awesome
God leaves people to their sinful desires for his Decree, this does not put a stamp of approval on lying. Bad exegesis.
The prophet Jehoshaphat told the King of Israel to go to war and that he would be successful- that was a lie (however cheeky).
Thank you. I have been a “to the letter” rule-follower all my life (drilled into me as a child — I’m now in my 60s…) and I drive my hubby crazy. But this year, things have been happening to me personally that have begun to help me let go of my fear and give me understanding of this whole principle. You have been part of that process that, if I really think it through, actually started a few years ago. I am so thankful to a God who loves me and has always been gentle with me to bring me,… Read more »
Do you know providers who administer low dose flu shots?
I have pretty much stayed out of commenting here on Covid issues because we just disagree so what’s the point of arguing about it. I have to say, though, that I am married to a critical care nurse who has been working 60 hour weeks for most of the last year because of Covid, and what you are advocating is just madness. Not only is this not a fake pandemic, in parts of Florida, if you have a heart attack or stroke, you’re just going to have to wait for a bed because the critical care beds are all taken… Read more »
What’s the name of the hospital where your wife works?
What’s the names of the hospitals where it’s said “…in parts of Florida, if you have a heart attack or stroke, you’re just going to have to wait for a bed because the critical care beds are all taken up with Covid patients.”?
I’m not going to disclose my wife’s employer, but a few minutes on google and you’ll find plenty. The situation I describe is true throughout much of the South.
And just to be clear, the robbery victim isn’t in her hospital; that’s a different hospital.
“And just to be clear, the robbery victim isn’t in her hospital; that’s a different hospital.” If so, then revealing the name and location of that hospital wouldn’t “disclose” your wife’s employer. Sorry if I do not believe you… but I don’t, at least not this tale about a robbery victim with six bullet wounds awaiting surgery for a week “because the Covid patients” are taking up all the available resources. Covid patients are generally not stacked up outside of surgery wards, awaiting an available surgeon. I suppose it could be that his surgery would automatically land him in the… Read more »
It would have taken you 5 seconds to look it up or see that others have already posted it. You and Harry should apologize for falsely calling him a liar.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/08/16/joel-valdez-houston-covid-hospitals/
You actually believe the swamp-state shills at the WapPo on matters of politicized national crisis?
I’m not going to call you a liar– that’s a far more deadly charge than many upthread seem to realize– but I’ll call you, on your own evidence, an idiot, and the dupe of liars. As clichéd as it has become thanks to Alex Jones and like nutjobs, do your own reading sometimes.
In other words, you’re lying.
For you to assume Mike is making stuff up is really messed up. I don’t know if this link will work as you may have to log in through the university system. https://pulse.utah.edu/program/COVID19/videos/daily-clinical-updates/august-3-2021
University of Utah. This presentation is from the daily briefing from hospital administration. If you cant watch, basically before jumping to a bunch of hospital stats about available beds and all that kind of stuff they relay a story about a patient from Idaho who needed advanced care due to a heart condition. Long story short there was no room in the inn for him.
I know people who work in and for hospitals (including medical records) and their accounts are the polar opposite of Mike’s. Are they really messed up, too?
All the hospitals, doctors, Republican administration, they’re all lying….and your best counterevidence for us is a vague secondhand word of mouth anecdote from a stranger who doesn’t use his real name.
https://idahocapitalsun.com/2021/08/16/the-overall-trend-is-bad-this-is-what-covid-19-is-doing-to-idaho-hospitals/
This doesn’t require “all” hospitals or doctors to lie at all. Do you not even get that? And who’s the stranger not using his real name…you?
When many Southern states are reporting that virtually every ICU bed across the state is full and every single hospital in those states reports that Covid patients are what is filling them – yes, every hospital would have to be lying to maintain that .
And Jonathan is my real name, but it’s irrelevant as the points I make do not rely on my authority or any hearsay, unlike yours.
Wonderful. Why not start your “JonathanKnowsAll.com” blog instead of hijacking someone else’s?
Don’t you hate it when you get schooled by someone who actually knows what he’s talking about and has REAL FACTS to back him up?
You’re only embarrassing yourself. But hey, knock yourself out. No doubt Doug is orgasmic over your stalwart support.
Just because every bed may be full means not much.. during flu season that is normal. Also, don’t let the statement… “all our icu beds are full” scare you.. there might only be 3 beds in their whole unit… maybe 10 if bigger hospital
They say they are covid patients, as I’m sure they are. But what I’m hearing from all my friends in the medical field in my area of Florida is that almost all of the hospitalized patients have had the “vaccine”. Doctors are reporting that the “vaccine” is decimating the immune systems of people who were perfectly healthy prior to rolling up their sleeves. I’ll trust my body’s immune system. It kept me healthy throught the first round of covid. The delta variant is like a mild version of the common cold for those who kept their sleeves in place. That… Read more »
Your claim about Florida hospitalized being almost all vaccinated is completely false. Not only were 90% of Florida patients unvaccinated, but why do you think the worst outbreaks were in the least vaccinated states? And your claim about India makes no sense – they were completely devastated by the Delta variant.
https://www.wesh.com/article/central-florida-health-officials-more-than-90-of-covid-19-hospitalizations-are-unvaccinated-people/37170824
just throwing this out there, if it has not been 14 days since you’ve received the vaccine, and you go to a hospital because of it, you’re still considered “unvaccinated “.
Considering that an extremely small % of vaccinations occurred during the previous 14 days, I doubt that is a major factor. In fact most vaccinations occurred in April/May when Covid hospitalizations were very low.
In fact, here’s some data that splits out “fully-vaccinated” and “partially vaccinated” from unvaccinated – it shows that the partial-vaccination group is not seriously contributing to hospitalizations at all.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7034e5.htm
You are correct sir. If you follow the data and statistics coming out of Israel and Europe, we are lagging just a little bit behind them. Israel is a nation made up of a populace that is greater than 80% vaccinated. Their hospitals are also bursting at the seams, with vaccinated people. And it mostly has something to do with a recently “FDA approved“ vaccine losing its effectiveness to the tune of 39% and dropping by around seven or eight months post vaccination. We will be hitting that same trend before we know it. The ICU beds will in fact… Read more »
The last numbers I saw out of Israel were a 78% vaccination rate of people over 12, which is good but not amazing. And as a result their total hospitalizations at peak are only about half that of Oregon’s, despite having twice as large a population as Oregon. Yes, some of the oldest most vulnerable people with the earliest vaccinations were among that group, as much older people have a weaker response to vaccines than most adults do.
My attention to detail is lacking, I see that you are not a “sir“.
Sue, I hate to tell you, your friends are either misinformed or lying to you.
My sister works at a hospital. She said that she is not seeing anything more than normal traffic into the ER.
Well, glory be, after 650,000 deaths, let’s stick a fork in this pandemic and call it done because Sasak’s sister who works in the ER says so!
Just keep Papaw supplied with ivermectin from the feed store and we can call it a day.
Please don’t encourage him!
Sasak, which state?
A friend of mine’s son was recently injured and needed to go to the emergency room. The mother called the closest hospital emergency room and was told that there would be a very long wait, at least an hour or two. They decided to go there anyway. When they arrived 15 minutes later, there was no line. There was no wait. … Don’t believe everything you read or hear. Even from medical professionals.
I’ve noticed the people telling us not to believe medical professionals then turn around and expect us to believe third-hand hearsay from strangers on the internet.
I have spoken to multiple people who report working in overwhelmed hospitals.
Jonathan: “I have spoken to multiple people who report working in overwhelmed hospitals.”
Sorry, but I don’t believe third-hand hearsay from strangers on the internet.
You don’t have to – read the public doctor statements I’ve already linked, or the reports on ICU capacity from any surge state.
Aaaaaaand the point sailed right over your head.
Probably because there is a higher percentage of people who got the “vaccine” around those hospitals. It’s the ones who have been vaccinated who are getting sick. Even the guy who developed the mRNA gene therapy technology, commonly called the “vivid-19 vaccine,” said to not get the shot. Why? Because 100% of the test animals died when exposed to a variant of the “vaccine.” Not good odds for those who rolled up their sleeves like good little sheeple.
Please provide your sources for these claims.
All of your claims are false. The hospitalized patients are overwhelmingly unvaccinated, the vaccine is not “gene therapy”, the random guy calling himself the developer of mRNA technology actually had almost nothing to do with it, and no test animals died from the shot.
to assume he is telling the truth should also be taken with skepticism.
My brother is a doctor in a hospital in Calhoun, Georgia and they have no beds, I couldn’t get my kid into the doctor in an Atlanta suburb all week last week, waited 4 hours at an urgent care full of covid positive people struggling. A 42 year old previously healthy unvaccinated man who coaches in our soccer league just died of the Delta Variant so…there may not be “that many” deaths, but is is definitely not a hoax of some kind…I see a lot of the issues Wilson raises with government overreach, etc….but sometimes governments can overreach because of… Read more »
That is because people who catch COVID are often not being given safe and effective early treatments which lower the hospitalization rates 80% over the wait and see approach. That, to me, is the madness. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924857920304258
That’s a bit like arguing that the drunk driver wouldn’t have been hurt so badly if he’d been wearing a seatbelt. True, but he shouldn’t have been behind the wheel at all. Just as these people who could have gotten better early treatment wouldn’t have needed early treatment if they’d gotten the vaccine.
It’s not like arguing about drunk drivers. It’s like arguing less COVID patients would need to be in an ICU bed if hospitals would give patients safe and effective treatments that lower the hospitalizations rate
John, I think a difficulty here is how the virus affects people. Most people don’t require any medical treatment for COVID. The vast majority of COVID patients who actually get sick have flu-like symptoms and gradually improve over the next ten days. Patients who end up in the ICU often appear to have been coming along nicely until they crash on day four or five and can’t breathe. For most people there isn’t really a point right now at which they have access to safe and effective treatment in the earliest stages. I suspect that many patients who end up… Read more »
When a virus is grown under the selective pressure of a single monoclonal antibody that targets a single epitope on a viral protein, mutations in that protein sequence will lead to the loss of neutralisation, and the generation of escape mutants. This sequence of events has been shown in the laboratory for polio, measles, and respiratory syncytial virus,7 and in 2020 for SARS-CoV-2.8
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(21)00075-8/fulltext
I hate it when I read something and it’s so far over my head that I don’t know whether to puff my chest out and say, “You tell ’em, Diane!” or shake my head and say, “Diane, bless your heart, you need Jesus.”
A biotech CEO friend who specializes in viral therapeutics shared with me (well before Doug’s post went up) that the essence of Diane’s statement has been well established for quite some time. The essence of it, metaphorically speaking, is akin to turning a hand grenade into a MIRV nuke.
I believing you’ve misinterpreted Diane’s quote and confusing the unique Marek’s chicken issue (a different problem also never once seen in a human vaccine) with the more common issue of escape mutants. Nothing in Diane’s quote or the larger paper suggest that escape mutants would be more deadly at all, in fact they are just as likely (if not more likely) to in fact be less deadly.
You pulled out a random line from the middle of the paper, ignoring that the effect has only been seen in the lab (not in real-world vaccine use in humans) and that the rest of the paper qualified that statement and showed why it might not be a concern at all. The actual conclusion of the authors was that careful monitoring of variants should be made, not that the vaccines will be ineffective or cause new variants. And to this point about 9 months after vaccination started, every variant to date has developed in a largely or completely unvaccinated country.
Good to see people who still have operable brains here. Cheers!
Vaccinated people are being hospitalized and dying of covid too—more and more so as time goes on. And if the strains get deadlier it will almost certainly be because we treated covid with a leaky vaccine instead of with early treatment medications. Were it not for a leaky vaccine, the variants would only get weaker, not stronger.
Ree, you’ve got that exactly backward. Since vaccination rates are only about 70%, the virus has more opportunity to develop resistance and mutate than it would if the vaccine rate were, say, 95%. In all probability there will be new and more virulent strains and it will mostly be the fault of people who didn’t get vaccinated.
And yes, some vaccinated people do have breakthrough infections. Some people who lock their doors get burglarized, but that’s not a reason to stop locking your doors.
You should look up “leaky vaccines.” When a vaccine is not a “perfect vaccine” meaning that it completely prevents disease, then the virus is able to mutate into more deadly strains in vaccinated individuals without killing them because of their imperfect protection, then spread to the unvaccinated, thereby killing them. Look up Ménière’s disease in chickens for how this has happened in the real world. We can only hope it isn’t the outcome of this leaky vaccine. Perhaps the fact that the vaccine is doing that well even protecting vaccinated people anymore will turn out to be a mercy keeping… Read more »
Ree, the process you describe is a function of how viruses fight immune systems, it’s not unique to vaccines. And considering that the vast majority of vaccines are “leaky vaccines” by your definition, and yet the process you describe has literally never, ever happened in humans, perhaps you’re overplaying that “threat”?
There’s a reason you had to go to a chicken example.
The only place where I seem to have been mistaken is in the name of the disease in chickens which is Marek’s disease, not Meniere’s disease.
https://www.healthline.com/health-news/leaky-vaccines-can-produce-stronger-versions-of-viruses-072715
Here’s a pre-covid article which explains the concept and why they need to be so careful in developing an Ebola vaccine so as not to develop even deadlier strains of the disease. (Hint: it had nothing to do with chickens) Yet with covid, even though this was being publicly discussed prior to the release of these vaccines, it was ignored.
Both mareks disease and Ebola kill a large % of their hosts, so keeping the host alive and the virus alive leads to new virulent strains. Since covid kills so few, this argument fails since vaxxed or unvaxxed stay alive 99% of the time.
Again as I said, the example people keep going to is chickens because it has literally never happened in humans. Even the author of the study you cite says that it’s a mistake to apply his paper to Covid because Covid vaccines do heavily reduce transmission, unlike the Marek’s vaccine.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/andreamorris/2021/08/08/joe-rogan-is-getting-this-completely-wrong-says-the-scientist-who-conducted-the-vaccine-study/
You can’t use the chickens example because the leaky vaccine prevented mutations in weak strains of disease where most chickens stayed alive. Only in dangerous diseases where most chickens that weren’t vaxxed died, did keeping the host alive with a vaccine allow for more deadly mutations to arise. We can’t argue that covid is both a near non-risk It’s so weak AND try to use the chicken experiment regarding very deadly disease and leaky vaccines…
This is encouraging, if true, that the decision to try to conquer covid with vaccines, instead of with good and available treatments, at least isn’t likely to eventually end up killing everyone who isn’t vaccinated. Do you have anything written, pre-covid, that explains that this leaky vaccine issue is only a problem with very deadly diseases?
Mike,
I’d encourage you to read this:
https://www.geertvandenbossche.org/post/not-covid-19-vaccine-mediated-but-naturally-acquired-immunity-enables-herd-immunity
I think your point is a fair one if we were talking about a traditional vaccine, but Vanden Bossche and others have shown conclusively that the homogenous nature of the immune response developed from the mRNA vaccines is what’s actually causing escape variants.
J, it’s certainly false that Bossche could have proven that, considering that none of the current variants we’re dealing with developed in vaccinated populations. The delta variant, for example, emerged in India in Oct 2020. So how can you blame vaccination?
Hmmmm. I wonder why it isn’t called the Indian variant?
Though there may not have been a vaccination trial in India “officially”, there were vaccines being administered for Covid to many in India starting as early as the summer of 2020: Patients were not allowed to leave the hospital (in for other reasons) before receiving one. I think it’s humorous that anyone in North America actually feels like we’ve been told what’s actually going on around the world.
India’s Covidshield vaccine trials only had 100 participants in Stage 1 and 1,600 participants in Stage 2. That’s 0.0001% of the population. Delta was first detected in India in October 5, before their vaccine’s Stage 3 trials had even begun. The idea that the Delta variant emerged because 0.0001% of the population was vaccinated defies credulity.
And I’m not sure who you rely on to tell you what’s going on in India, but there are hundreds of Indian media outlets as well as 1.2 billion individual Indians and they’re not particularly quiet. Over time it’s pretty easy to see which ones are just propaganda arms for the Hindu Nationalist government and which ones are giving real information, especially if you spend time there or have trusted friends there to factcheck with.
Mike, I’m sorry, but this part of Doug’s piece applies to you:
> If you don’t see the power play that is being run, and which is the central point of all of this, that is because the power play has already been run on you, and has already worked. You have already been digested, and so I am not writing any of this for you.
True observation!
Half a million Americans have died. More than five million worldwide have died. Horrible, suffocating deaths. Survivors with lingering chronic health problems. Devastated families. The evidence that the pandemic is real and deadly is all around us. It’s the height of foolishness to believe that this is somehow a mirage to advance a conspiracy for the purpose of gaining control over people. It’s an absolute lie peddled by people who want your devotion to their church, or their candidacy, or their militia, or their podcast. But despite the obviousness of this lie that the pandemic is just a power play,… Read more »
That is the opposite of what vaccine developer Geert Vanden Bossche has said … and I’ll quote then link the article “ He believes that: Ongoing mass vaccination deployments are “highly-likely to further enhance ‘adaptive’ immune escape as none of the current vaccines will prevent replication/transmission of viral variants” As such, “The more we use these vaccines for immunizing people in the midst of a pandemic, the more infectious the virus will become”. And “With increasing infectiousness comes an increased likelihood of viral resistance to the vaccines”. He claims his beliefs are basic principles taught in a student’s first vaccinology… Read more »
Okay JDL. Keep talking. I’m sure there’s one or two people out there who haven’t “noticed” yet.
Another antisemitic slur? You seem to have trouble forming an argument without them.
Jill,
Looks like Doug’s Gab strategy is paying dividends?
I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone call another individual JDL as a smear… how odd.
I expect he thought he was being subtle in this round of “name the Jew.” He used the triple parentheses and big nose tropes
farther down the thread. From the dire quality of his Jew-baiting, I take him to be around twelve.
One sees a lot less of the ((())) these days. That’s because so many Jews and their gentile family members have claimed it as their own and use it ironically.
What the evidence is actually showing is that the virulence of THIS virus is in fact DECREASING. We must not simply look at all viruses as if they are the same. They are not. Cases have increased (they did so at this time last year), but there is not the same death rate that we had in the early days of this pandemic. Its virulence is decreasing. But even more important is, the demographics of who is dying are NOT changing – elderly, unhealthy (obese), etc. Look at the vast difference in mortality by age and health conditions. It’s not… Read more »
Ask India if the virulence decreased. The delta outbreak we’re experiencing now is the exact same virus that decimated them a few months ago. The reason you’re seeing lower death rate in USA is because most of the elderly are vaccinated.
You’re way off here. My Indian friend who travels to India often tells me that a huge percentage of the population is poor and correspondingly are malnourished and lack healthcare. Also, there is generally poor hygiene. And he also said the shutdowns had a negative affect, causing much starvation – this hurt and even killed people who should have survived COVID. Americans generally do not face malnutrition.
India was just as poor, malnourished, and lacking healthcare when the original virus hit them in spring/summer 2020. And yet deaths were minimal. Yet when Delta hit in spring 2021 the deaths were enormous. So no, malnutrition and poverty don’t explain it.
And India DID shut down in March 2020, when the virus first hit. Yet Covid deaths remained low. They DIDN’T shut down in 2021 when Delta hit. And Covid deaths were horrific. So your shutdown excuse works exactly backwards.
Please go take your argument over to Israel where their rate of shots is over 85% and see their new case rates. Your arguments just get old. (and btw, you do know there is no test to detect this “delta variant,” right?)
Susan, Israel has 78% of over 12 vaccinated, which is strong but not strong enough to prevent transmission. However, it is good enough that they have just half the hospitalizations as Oregon despite having twice as high a population as Oregon. That means just 1/4 the hospitalization rate – sounds like a great benefit for just 15% higher vaccination!
Keep in mind the virus has already been circulating for over a year-and-a-half… there is significant natural herd immunity and many of the weakest have already succumbed. Hospitalization would naturally be going down, particularly if we let the virus run it’s course naturally. The populations, lifestyle and climate are also very different. My guess is that Israel has lower hospitalization rates then Oregon at anytime. To credit any of this to 15% increase in overall vaccination is simplistic. Besides, you have no citations to back up your claims.
There has not been significant herd immunity nor have a substantial % of the “weakest” already succumbed. That might have been true if a large majority of Americans had already been infected, but we weren’t there.
And hospitalization would not be “naturally going down if we let the virus run its course” as hospitalizations have spiked dramatically wherever the Delta variant has hit, and the situation has been the worst where vaccination has been the least.
Natural immunity does not last. It is weaker than the vaccine. Herd immunity, as a strategy, failed terribly in the UK.
It is astonishing to me that you people trust a deadly disease more than a vaccine.
They identified the Delta variant by decoding the genes present in viral samples taken recently and discovering differences between that genomic sequencing and the sequencing performed at the beginning of the outbreak. The tests most people get can’t pick up the variant, but labs at public health departments can identify viral mutations.
Yeah, Mike. You have 0.0 data to back that up. You are using supposition only.
The data says you are 100% wrong. Vaccines always spike variants. Always have. Always will.
But Faucci said . . .
Sorry, Mike.
The claim “vaccines always spike variants” is simply false in general, and particularly false in the case of Covid as every variant of significance that we know of so far developed in an unvaccinated population.
Vaccines do often promote the prominence of alternate strains… the HPV vaccine has been shown to do precisely this as has the Pertussis vaccine. This is because they only protect against a few of many strains that are known to cause the disease and, as a result, the non-vaccine strains become dominant with time. Interestingly, the more strains vaccinated against (ex. Gardasil 9) the more “strains” seem to emerge…
I didn’t say, “vaccines cannot promote the prominence of alternate strains.” But again, it is clearly false to state that vaccines always spike variants or that such has happened in the case of Covid-19.
You should listen to Geerd vanden Bossche, who has been working with vaccines all his life and says exactly the opposite of what you state here. It’s the “vaccine” that causes the virus to mutate, but it is, of course easier, to blame the “unvaccinated”. They are the new enemy and need to be eradicated. Too much independent and critical thinking is not welcome in our societies.
First off, all of the variants we’re dealing with (like Delta, which emerged in India in October 2020) came from unvaccinated populations. So you can’t possibly blame vaccines.
Second, vaccines don’t “cause” a virus to mutate. Mutations are generally random occurrences that occur during replication, thus the most important cause is simply more replication. The more the virus spreads and the more sick people get, the more likely a mutation will occur.
Bossche is an absolute crank with no legitimacy among respected scientists. People follow him because his wild claims align with their worldview, not because he is right.
https://www.snopes.com/news/2021/03/26/geert-vanden-bossche/
Mike, our hospital has only a few critical care beds. In fact, years ago, our hospital reduced the number of hospital beds to meet a Federal break point to achieve the maximum bucks with the minimum beds. Why not use other beds for critical care? -Oh, they don’t meet the standards required by uncle. -Oh, our hospital requires SARS CoV-2 testing before admittance. The fact that you have six bullet holes in you doesn’t alleviate the requirement. -Oh, we might lose some of our funding. -The hospital administrator says we can’t do that. The reason that hospitals don’t use other… Read more »
I don’t follow your comparison. I was not arguing for or against vaccination as a mitigation strategy. I’m just making the point that hospitalizations could be lowered by 80% if known early treatment modalities became standard operating procedure.
Mike, it’s not like that at all. With aggressive early treatment, many people, if not most, will never enter the hospital.
Tina, and with vaccines, a lot of them wouldn’t be getting Covid in the first place.
Then why does Israel have a Delta outbreak?
Israel’s 78% vaccination rate for adults isn’t high enough to have completely prevented an outbreak, but they only have half as many Covid hospitalizations as Oregon despite having twice the population. So that higher vaccination rate appears to have had a substantial beneficial effect. Considering the spread rate, it looks like they likely would have had needed at least 90% adult vaccination to have really clamped down, due to the more virulent Delta.
You are a broken record. Time will set all things straight…
You are replying to some quite clear and directly relevant factual claims. A vague insult is not considered a logically adequate counter for that.
Then why are countries restricting travel to Israel and they are considering 3rd and 4th boosters? What happens when the next variant apoears? Monthly boosters? How many shares do you have in big pharma???
Same reason Colorado does with 80% vaccination rates. https://www.bloombergquint.com/onweb/colorado-hits-80-vaccine-rate-as-hospitals-in-covid-19-crisis
Hospitals are not built to treat 10% of the population at once.
..and this statement is in direct contradiction to what the data, science, “breakthrough cases” and even what the govt/FDA/CDC/et al are currently telling us. This even flies in the face of what we know about current, established vaccines and how they work.
Hahahahahaha. Only if the CDC counts those <14 days post injection as "unvaccinated". The truth is, those who have had the injections ARE getting COVAIDS.
So why did the New South Wales chief Health officer (& another official from the UK) say that as vaccinations rise we will see more cases of vaccinated in hospital? Its out of the bag that the vaccines dont stop you getting it or passing it along, so reducing hospitalization is the very last claim they have. A couple of weeks back in new south Wales we were told there were 141 people in hospital with Covid. 140 of them had been double jabbed and the remaining person had one shot. So for a jab with zero safety data and… Read more »
WHY NOT BOTH??
Mike, if you see my comment below, I’ve had questions about this too, but there are reasons hospitals are full, and the reason is because the federal government is not allowing therapeutics to be easily dispensed. This is a very manageable disease with very low risk of death, but the powers that be don’t want it to be for whatever evil reasons they have. Because Genesis 3 is true, I have no doubt believing that. If you have an open mind, and you want to learn what’s going on from very reputable sources, doctors who’ve dealt with thousands and thousands… Read more »
Mike D’Virgilio, whatever evil reasons do you think those might be? Spend a few minutes actually thinking through the implications of what you’re saying. What possible motivation would the government at all levels have to kill their own people by denying therapeutics? If what you are suggesting is true, then there is a conspiracy at the highest levels of government to destroy our own economy and kill Americans by the tens of thousands. I could see Putin or China wanting to do that, but how would the US government benefit from it? How do Biden and Fauci benefit? What’s in… Read more »
I don’t think the ruling elites necessarily want people killed, they just don’t mind it. They gain power, simple. So many Americans have surrendered so much of their daily life to the state because they are scared.
That’s just text book Communist/Socialist/Authoritarian behavior. Scare the people, get the power, keep the power. I really don’t need to have a tinfoil hate to say that the rulers of our nation currently think far to highly of their ability to lead, are very corrupt, and will aggressively lie to keep that power.
Note: Epstein didn’t kill himself.
Are we not talking about a government and nation and medical system that murders thousands of unborn children every day, day in and day out??
Exactly
MONEY! MONEY! MONEY! THEY ARE IN IT FOR THE MONEY.
<i>What possible motivation would the government at all levels have to kill their own people by denying therapeutics?</i>
Because they’re a bunch of psychopaths who would rather break all their toys than have them taken away.
So… the FDA hires scientists to put vaccines through rigorous safety tests. But secretly tells the scientists that the vaccines should actually kill people so that some group of elites somehow grows more powerful. And all the scientists working on the vaccines, and all the scientists working on the safety tests, project managers and bureaucrats – thousands and thousands of people – are all lying, murderous psychopaths who are able to keep this unprecedented conspiracy a secret.
You believe that?
$$$. Big Pharma $$$. Follow the money. Big government conspiracy: Mao’s revolution killing millions of their own people, Stalin’s and Russians revolution starving and murdering millions of their countrymen. This wasn’t that long ago. The leaders here are built off the same humanity. Don’t be blinded because this is “America.” Humanity is fallen (Genesis 3) and evil.
Follow the money!
https://dougwils.com/store
Afghanistan.
Are you familiar with the Georgia Guidestones? Agenda 21? There are reasons and they are evil. Believe it or not. They have been telling us for at least the last two or three decades.
Yes, these conspiracy theories about how the government is out to kill everyone have been around for centuries. Often these conspiracy theories are used to prep the public for revolution, which then propels the source of the conspiracy theories into power. And this is always much, much worse than the original government. This precise cycle occurred in Russia prior to the Bolshevik revolution – you might be interested to know that Lenin championed free speech before taking power and abolishing free speech. It won’t be Bolsheviks when it happens here, it will be right wing populists, but in the end… Read more »
It was.
Mike, remember that the USA is not the only nation in the world. There are plenty of nations where those “therapeutics” were dispensed readily, even with the strong encouragement of the government (Brazil, India) and then still had devastating epidemics. There has yet to be any demonstrable evidence that they have a meaningful positive effect.
The reason hospitals are full is because nurses won’t take the vaccine, are quitting in droves and they’re shutting beds. Oh & they’ve been underfunded for years and still are, which is why “2 weeks to flatten the curve” has turned into 20 months of lockdowns, masks, social distancing, heartbreak and suicide.
It is absolutely insane that you are trusting Steve Bannon as a source of scientific knowledge. Bannon has no credibility in any field and his entire agenda is to be an Alex Jones-style political agitator. You are seriously radicalized and you need help returning to reality.
Mike Freeman: “Just as these people who could have gotten better early treatment wouldn’t have needed early treatment if they’d gotten the vaccine.”
Gee, if only Jesse Jackson and his wife had gotten the vexxine, they wouldn’t be in the hospital with COVID.
Oh, wait…
Mike, that’s like saying it is ok to not render aid to the drunk diver bleeding on the ground after an accident because they shouldn’t have been driving drunk in the first place.
Except that it is a sin drive drunk. It is not inherently sinful not to get a vaccine, especially for a disease that kills only 0.05% of those infected.
However, it is usually sinful to go around telling everyone how wrong they are for not agreeing with your conscience.
Right, this is why heavily vaccinated places like Israel are dealing with skyrocketing cases right now. Got it! https://www.precisionvaccinations.com/2021/08/11/israels-covid-19-vaccine-breakthrough-cases-exceed-50
John, Israel has half as many Covid hospitalizations as Oregon despite having twice the population. So their hospitalization rate is 75% lower than Oregon’s….and Oregon isn’t even one of the worst-hit states. Sounds like a pretty good outcome for just 78% vaccination of over 12!
You do know that what you allowed to be put in you is not a vaccine, right? The effects of what you did allow to be shot into your body don’t prevent anything. They keep supposedly the symptoms “mild.”
It is a vaccine Susan (just like the flu vaccine every year, TB vaccine, and many others that don’t prevent 100% of transmission), and it does prevent transmission a high percentage of the time. The best data seems to be that it prevents 75-80% of transmission and 85-95% of severe disease and deaths.
Wow. It is NOT a vaccine, it is an mRNA gene therapy injection, or it is an “adenovirus vector” injection (CANCER). You are lost and it is time for everyone to ignore you.
Agree.
It is very explicitly not gene therapy, and gene therapy is so extraordinarily different from what any of the vaccines does that it’s simply ridiculous to try to equate them. Gene therapy changes the DNA in your cells. No covid vaccine does that.
Because people who get the vaccine don’t get COVID or end up in the hospital.
Yes, if they survive the vaccination.
Which they do at much, much higher rates than COVID. Serious side effects from the vaccine do exist, but are extremely rare. You have much greater risk of getting long haul symptoms from COVID than from having any serious side effect from the vaccines. Please, please look at reputable scientific sources.
Once again. This.
Are you saying that “vaccinated” people don’t come down with covid and therefore wouldn’t need any early treatment? In Israel the patients in ICU are between 80 to 95% “vaccinated” people. You might want to do some research and not believe all the mainstream media and governmnets are telling you.
That’s a great point. My wife and I had the unfortunate experience on Sunday of being with a relative (through divorce and remarriage) who is a radiologist, and he’s a full on COVID hype machine. One reason is that he’s seeing exactly what Mike’s wife is seeing. I’ve wondered what’s going on too having read things about this, and another doctor my wife saw saying the same thing. From the very begging when Fauci and public health officials downplayed therapeutics, I knew something was very wrong. I learned later that if therapeutics were a viable option, then Fauci and his… Read more »
That is a good point. Got to be able to separate the non medical side out from the actual practicing of medicine.
It’s completely false that EUA authorization wouldn’t have been given for vaccines if therapeutics were widely available. The theraputics you’re speaking of were widely available in numerous other nations like India and Brazil, yet they still had terrible epidemic loss and still need vaccination desperately.
Not false….from the FDA I. Criteria for Issuance of Authorization I have concluded that the emergency use of Pfizer-BioNTech COVID‑19 Vaccine for the prevention of COVID-19 when administered as described in the Scope of Authorization (Section II) meets the criteria for issuance of an authorization under Section 564(c) of the Act, because: A. SARS-CoV-2 can cause a serious or life-threatening disease or condition, including severe respiratory illness, to humans infected by this virus; B. Based on the totality of scientific evidence available to FDA, it is reasonable to believe that Pfizer-BioNTech COVID‑19 Vaccine may be effective in preventing COVID-19, and… Read more »
Alyse – I don’t think you read what I said. In places like Brazil and India those “therapeutics” Mike referred to were available to the public. The government distributed them in massive quantities and doctors could use them freely. And yet it didn’t help – both nations had disastrous pandemics, among the worst in the world. So clearly the “therapeutics” Mike promotes wouldn’t have forestalled the need for a vaccine.
Not false…this from the FDA: I. Criteria for Issuance of Authorization I have concluded that the emergency use of Pfizer-BioNTech COVID‑19 Vaccine for the prevention of COVID-19 when administered as described in the Scope of Authorization (Section II) meets the criteria for issuance of an authorization under Section 564(c) of the Act, because: A. SARS-CoV-2 can cause a serious or life-threatening disease or condition, including severe respiratory illness, to humans infected by this virus; B. Based on the totality of scientific evidence available to FDA, it is reasonable to believe that Pfizer-BioNTech COVID‑19 Vaccine may be effective in preventing COVID-19,… Read more »
Except the therapeutics don’t stop the epidemic Alyse. The countries that used them were still devastated. Here’s a study from Brazilian doctors and scientists in Brazil (a very pro-HCQ country that distributed it freely) that monitored 55 hospitals and found no improved outcomes from HCQ.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2019014
Of course they found no improved outcomes from HCQ — they administered it to patients in the advanced phase of the disease, when it was ineffective. From the linked study: However, in most instances, the duration of previous use was only 24 to 48 hours before enrollment, primarily because, before May 13, we required that patients be enrolled in the trial within 48 hours after hospital admission and because outpatient use of these drugs (before admission) was infrequent. After May 13, we specified that use of these drugs for more than 24 hours was an exclusion criterion. Finally, although the… Read more »
The best evidence you could find was written by a politically active Sports Injury doctor who neither treats infectious disease nor has written a paper on infectious disease in his entire life. Here are numerous epidemiologists calling the paper “rubbish”.
https://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/episodes/hydroxy/12758806
And extremely good evidence it was, your kneejerk propensity to attack the source when you can’t beat the argument notwithstanding. Did you know this “politically active” doctor got his paper published in a peer-reviewed journal, New Microbes and New Infections? Of course you didn’t. You didn’t actually read the study. If you had, and you did a little homework, you’d have discovered that Prodromos co-wrote two other studies dealing with infectious disease. Oops! Another claim, down the drain. Now since you were so insulting and self-righteous regarding owning up to mistakes, I expect a gracious apology. Any day now. Hey,… Read more »
FP, whatever you think of Fauci, he clearly is a well-qualified expert on infectious disease who has been dealing directly with viral epidemics for almost 40 years.
As opposed to your Sports Injury Doctor. What were the two other papers on infectious disease that you claim he has published before he started putting out Covid misinformation? Not a single one shows up here:
https://www.ismoc.net/publishedpapers.html
“It’s completely false that EUA authorization wouldn’t have been given for vaccines if therapeutics were widely available. ”
Alyce proved you a liar and you ignore it. False claims vitiates everything you’ve said.
What is false is the argument that the vaccines would not have received full (non-emergency) FDA approval if therapeutics were available. And they have now received full approval: https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-first-covid-19-vaccine
The therapeutics don’t work anywhere near as well as the vaccines. When they do, they will be everywhere. Give it a year.
India (among the other countries listed) have been using therapeutics with wild success lately. I think early on they may not have fully understood the necessary protocols to make successful but now they have.
https://covid19criticalcare.com/ivermectin-in-covid-19/epidemiologic-analyses-on-covid19-and-ivermectin/
India has pushed HCQ since the beginning and Ivermectin since August 2020, but their huge death surge came in March/April/May 2021. And your link shows a normal bell curve peak and decrease, there isn’t any apparent disruption in the trend from the Ivermectin release. Most importantly, the death rate remains unchanged the entire time. If Ivermectin is an effective treatment then why didn’t it improve the survival rate at all? Why would it supposedly reduce new cases in people who weren’t even taking it, but not help the people actually taking it?
And here’s a response to those previous claims from independent health reviewers, pointing out that India’s new case rate began flattening out several days before that government release of new Ivermectin protocol and there is no evidence at all linking doctor use of Ivermectin after the protocol to improved outcomes.
https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/no-data-available-to-suggest-a-link-between-indias-reduction-of-covid-19-cases-and-the-use-of-ivermectin-jim-hoft-gateway-pundit/
One retrospective case study isn’t very impressive. Here’s a review of various therapeutic agents, with what we know about them:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8184028/
Amen! This is truly one of the biggest travesties in history, that people who could be easily healed with cheap medicine are not being given that medicine or even told about it. Criminal!!
Easy, tiger. One of the biggest travesties in history? Hardly.
Yes, because in the end, way more than 6 million will die….
The Spanish Flu pandemic killed 50,000,000. There were no vaccines.
The real travesty is that there are vaccines available for Covid and a large percentage in the US (many are white evangelicals) refuse to get vaccinated. We even have pastors advocating against vaccinations.
If the vaccines are effective (and this is not an argument against their effectiveness) why would the vaccinated care if some choose not to be vaccinated? If polio were still a scourge, and yet the vaccine offered at no cost to all who wish to have it, why would moralistic denunciations rain down from the vaccinated onto the unvaccinated? It would seem reasonable to call them “sadly deceived”. It would seem rational to say they were “mistaken” in their mistrust of the vaccine. And so, some of them get polio. Some of them unknowingly spread it to others – those… Read more »
Because overwhelming hospitals with Covid patients has been terrible for our medical personnel as well as the other patients.
Also, the vaccine is highly effective, but people with weaker immune systems (older persons or those who are immunocompromised in some way) don’t build a strong enough response to be 100% protected. So others getting vaccinated protects the more vulnerable. Also, even vaccinated persons care about the lives of others.
Now who’s race baiting?
Wrong. They did produce a vaccine for the Spanish Flu. . . there was a massive campaign to distribute it. They thought the end of the pandemic has come. But it was a failure.
https://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/blog/vaccine-development-spanish-flu
PBS did a documentary I tend to recommend. It was put out before various government entities were trying to politicize a “pandemic.” Everything from masks to the failing vaccines and the reality that we are helpless to a virus no matter what silly “mitigation efforts” we try, is astoundingly familiar.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/influenza/
It’s hard to get those S/E early treatments because (1) they have been vilified by the media, (2) the studies that have been done by the medical establishment (which is in bed with the vilifiers) have pretty much all been designed to fail so they can say “See, it doesn’t work” and (3) even if you can find a physician to prescribe those S/E early treatments, many state Pharmacy Boards who are also on board with the vilifiers and the medical establishment don’t allow their pharmacists to dispense the stuff. Luckily, there are ways to get around that but it… Read more »
Anna, in India and Brazil you can get them freely, the government even did massive distribution campaigns, and it had zero impact. Why were the epidemics so bad there if it helps like you claim?
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2019014
Jonathan, you are mistaken about India. If you go here: https://isabelcastillo.com/coronavirus-deaths-population it shows the covid deaths as a percentage of the entire population of each country. India is way down the list, lower than Canada and Us (as well as probably 40 other countries).
Also, if you look at a graph showing deaths and/or cases, notice that it doesn’t sky rocket until this spring. What happened, you might ask…India started vaccinating in January 16, 2021 instead of using other early treatments. In fact, India is actually a case FOR using those other early treatments vs relying on vaccinations.
Less than 1% of India’s population was vaccinated when the surge hit, it’s ridiculous to blame it on vaccination. And no one chooses “vaccination instead of other treatments”, that doesn’t even make sense.
Rachel, if you follow reports from India or know anyone there you would understand that official death numbers are massive undercounts. The vast majority of Indians don’t go to a coroner when they die, they have the body cremated or buried on their own and no cause of death is recorded. The actual death toll is estimated to be 10x higher than official reports.
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-deaths-tracker
And in case you don’t like The Economist, here are reports of the same enormous undercounting from Indian papers using numerous data sources. Excess deaths during the surge were 820% higher than the official death toll.
https://www.thehindu.com/data/data-indias-excess-deaths-could-be-highest-among-nations-with-most-recorded-covid-19-fatalities/article35636438.ece
https://thelogicalindian.com/health/data-analysis-suggests-massive-undercounting-of-indias-cases-30294
https://qz.com/india/2039756/indias-actual-covid-19-death-toll-could-be-eight-times-higher/
The paper also points out that only 20% of Indian deaths are medically certified.
https://www.thehindu.com/data/data-indias-excess-deaths-could-be-highest-among-nations-with-most-recorded-covid-19-fatalities/article35636438.ece
The CDC has also said that twice as many people were affected in the US than previously thought which makes it half as deadly. Ah, but DELTA. Its even more deadly than the original!!! Why is that, when a tenth grader could understand why diseases evolve to be less deadly in the wild. And you’re so quick to point out India’s DEATH conditions, but not discuss LIVING conditions, especially from harsh lockdowns that do everything possible to make people more likely to get sick. Can you address the immunity debt caused by lockdowns? And stop talking about Oregon. I have… Read more »
I am Brazilian, living in Brazil (Ceará state). “Massive distribution”? The only small city I’ve heard about actually had good impact.
Claiming massive distribution in the country as a whole is really inaccurate.
Exactly right!
This. This and nothing more.
https://rumble.com/vlpecw-the-story-of-ivermectin.html
No credible studies to support its use.
“Misleading clinical evidence and systematic reviews on ivermectin for COVID-19”
“Prophylaxis against covid-19: living systematic review and network meta-analysis”
“Ivermectin for the treatment of COVID-19: A systematic review and meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials”
“Ivermectin is the new hydroxychloroquine”
A false prophet would necessitate falsehood in prophesy. If DWils is advocating allowing unvaxxed to go to work with vaxxed people and vaxxs work then what’s the problem? Is there falsehood in Wilson’s logic or is there falsehood in the narrative of vaxx effectiveness? If Wilson is encouraging an unvaxxed dad to be able to buy groceries for his unvaxxed family by going shopping for groceries around vaxxed and masked people what’s the problem? Is there falsehood in Wilson’s advice, (once again vaxx’s and masks work right?), or is there falsehood in the narrative that vaxx and masks work? Lastly,… Read more »
The problem is that if vaccines do work, then someone advocating against them is advocating that people put themselves and their own families at risk. It matters if people spread the vaccine or not, but if someone is actively giving bad medical advice, then that also matters for the particular people endangering themselves and their own families by acting on the advice. There’s a really high bar for pastors dispensing medical advice and I don’t think Doug is meeting it here.
Jane, is that same high bar set for the media, Dr Fauci, our governors and the multitude of doctors who are saying that SARS CoV-2 is an extremely dangerous virus that is going to kill us? The death tally is about 1-2% depending on which source you look at and that is not anywhere as dangerous as the high risk health problems that Americans face today. Several years after the first SARS was in China, Dr Fauci wrote that masks were not effective in the general public. That fact was buried by the media and those who are making huge… Read more »
Of course Fauci and the media have been terrible. That doesn’t make not getting the vaccine a good idea.Both things can be true.
:) Pray that God will give all of us the wisdom and knowledge to get through this mess.
Go to church to worship with your Christian friends and keep praising God.
Exactly!
This part was written for you:
“If you don’t see the power play that is being run, and which is the central point of all of this, that is because the power play has already been run on you, and has already worked. You have already been digested, and so I am not writing any of this for you.”
The triage function of this unnamed hospital somewhere in Florida prioritizes Covid patients with unknown number of comorbidities for nearly a week over someone shot 6 times. Your story’s kind of touching but sounds like a … . Or. Why is your wife working at this awful hospital.
It was in Houston, not Florida, and it’s silly to cast doubt on something you could have looked up in seconds.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/08/16/joel-valdez-houston-covid-hospitals/
So if the hospital was already full of people who needed to be in the hospital or risk death from a serious respiratory infection, who were they supposed to kick out in order to accommodate the shooting victim? You’re imagining a scenario where the Covid patients and the shooting victim are all trying to get admitted at the same time and they pick the Covid patients, but I believe the idea is that the hospitals were already full when the shooting victim’s situation emerged.
That’s what the hospitals want us to believe; however, there is the rest of the story. If you remember, the field hospitals set up in NYC, Seattle, Houston, LA and elsewhere, along with the two USN hospital ships, were essentially not used. The mayors and governors cried loud and long that they were overrun, but when the facilities were available, for all intents and purposes, they weren’t used. Idaho’s Governor Little told everyone in a press conference that our hospitals were in danger of being overrun and that our morgues were overflowing. He said he requested emergency assistance. When I… Read more »
You need to adjust your tin foil hat, or better yet, go back to sleep.
You are the one’s who are sleeping.
Yep. Like a baby! How about you?
A baby has no conscience. You should.
Keeping people from entering grocery stores because they have no proof of vaccination is madness. We can recognize that some healthcare providers are working hard while also recognizing the bizarre turn that society is currently taking.
This. I’m also concerned that “this vaccine is being advocated in an ungodly and oppressive manner” is being conflated with “this vaccine is useless and bad” and one does not follow from the other. It’s entirely possible that there’s a thing we should do, that government has no business forcing or strong-arming us into doing. Isn’t that a basic conservative argument?
Yep, I have no problem with voluntary vaccination but it’s the coersion and hysteria that’s deeply concerning. That many vaccines have a link to abortion is also a secondary consideration. Pfizer needs to hire Greta’s PR agent.
Unfortunately, at some point in the last 5 years it became the norm that if you disagree with someone morally or ethically, you then have to proceed to deny every point of reality that you think might support their argument. You can come to your own conclusions regarding how this arose so quickly to become the norm.
Yes. I am generally pro-vaccine, but the lack of research being done regarding natural immunity AND the government strong-arming make me suspicious enough to not want to take the vaccine for now.
We have a lot of data on natural immunity at this point. Turns out, natural immunity is not strong and doesn’t last. And getting infected in the first place puts you at risk of long haul symptoms.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/vaccine-protection-covid-19-natural-immunity-cdc-study/
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5247(21)00219-6/fulltext
Curbside pickup. Problem solved for the manly men afraid of needles and science. You’re welcome.
“Manly men afraid”, no precisely because we aren’t afraid.
Keep telling yourself that.
You are an insult to Mary and Martha, or, Martha & Mary.
Shall I put on my yellow star now?
Los Angeles’s mandate–which hasn’t come into effect yet and will undoubtedly face legal challenges–specifically exempts grocery stores, pharmacies, and retail outlets that provide “necessities of life.” I haven’t heard of an attempt anywhere to prevent unvaccinated people from getting groceries. I must look up whether the Los Angeles City Council considers weed a necessity of life!
France.
Or better yet, get vaccinated. Otherwise just grow up and shut your pie hole.
And then, for no reason, arrogant mouthy junior Stasi agents started being shot.
????
Try again.
They are NOT VACCINES. Unless you use the recently changed definition of “vaccine”.
Says you.
Yes, they are vaccines. I’m sure your favorite pastor or podcaster says otherwise to fit their political agenda, but that doesn’t make it true.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MRNA_vaccine
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/different-types-of-covid-19-vaccines/art-20506465
Oooh how democratic of you.
Thanks for working in these awful conditions. I am so confused as to why people cannot be for the vaccine and against vaccine mandates, as I am. When Pastor Wilson talks about lies, he should not be talking about the scientists who run trials and clinical studies. They are not engaged in some kind of massive fraud, and they actually want their research to stand up to scrutiny. (There are always a few bad actors, but I believe that researchers in general very much care about the ethics of their profession.) This is different from the diktats of the public… Read more »
Heidi, “I am confused as to why people cannot be for the vaccine and against vaccine mandates, as I am.” I would not favor making it a crime not to get the vaccine. At the same time, I’m fine with private businesses denying entry to unvaccinated people, because their lack of vaccination is keeping the virus alive. There are some things that only work if everyone (or almost everyone) does them. Polio was eradicated because, in those days before the anti-vaxers were as organized as they are today, government simply told everyone they were getting the vaccine. I remember, back… Read more »
Gentle readers, Mike forgets the children who were crippled or died from the polio vaccine.
Mike forgets the children today who are injured with the massive vaccine regime required by tax payer funded schools. Some vaccines are great. The huge amounts required now are not great at all.
Government intervention in health issues is never a good thing.
My governor just ordered testing for all public school students K-12 using a test that is now the CDC admits isn’t a reliable test. It’s about money and power, not about your health.
This is false. The polio vaccine caused three problems for every million doses. It was a huge success and saved the lives of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of children worldwide. Same with smallpox and many other diseases. Government safety reviews and distribution of medicines are extremely helpful. Sorry if that doesn’t fit your simple narrative that “everyone who doesn’t see the world exactly as I do is evil and incompetent.”
It’d be great if everyone got the vaccine, but the vaccines are effective enough that anyone who wants one is protected from serious disease pretty well–unlike traffic laws that require compliance from everyone to work. I agree that private businesses can ask for whatever terms of service they wish, but I do not see a case for government requiring vaccination. Now, of course I understand that people refusing the vaccine affects everybody as, for instance, your wife’s hospital being full up with COVID cases. The lines between “personal autonomy” and “harm to others” are a matter of violent disagreement; see,… Read more »
Having an individual right to say “No thank you, I don’t want those ingredients put in my bloodstream” in my opinion, is different than a gov’t saying “You must wait your turn to go, wait for the green light”. The human body is far more complex than keeping some cars in a waiting pattern to keep from crashing. I recommend reading Dissolving Illusions by Suzanne Humphries to get a different perspective and story of what happened with Polio. I’m seeing a lot of connections to how they count their case numbers prior to vaccine and post ‘ta da’ vaccine. Pre… Read more »
Should that individual have the right to refuse the vaccine, and then go work with the elderly? And lie about not having been vaccinated? Putting all those elderly people at serious risk and betraying their trust? https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/nursing-homes-experienced-steeper-increase-in-covid-19-cases-and-deaths-in-august-2021-than-the-rest-of-the-country/
You have a warped view of vaccines and their efficacy. Data shows the explosion of variants coincides with the vaccination rollout gaining steam in the broader population. Also, natural immunity from defeating the infection is the preferred way to gain immunity. It has statistically the longest lasting effect, the best performance against variants, and overall safest way to defeat covid for anyone under ~65 years of age without a comorbidity like obesity diabetes. But for some reason, natural immunity is not only overlooked, it is actively ignored and derided in favor of money-making experimental vaccines. THAT, more than anything should… Read more »
Nothing that you wrote here is true, and there is no credible evidence backing your claims.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7044e1.htm?s_cid=mm7044e1_w
“Imagine applying that rationale to traffic safety. “I’m in favor of stopping at red lights, but I don’t think the government should mandate it.” Seriously?” Your reasoning here is really spectacularly ridiculous. You’re conflating any and all rules the government might conceivably enforce as though they all have equal moral justification for enforcement. I think people should eat healthy foods, but I do not think the government should legally require you to eat healthy foods. I don’t think you should watch too much tv, but I do not think the government should legally force you to limit your tv time.… Read more »
And my Aunt got “polio” from the vaccine! Now days, they just changed the name to “acute flaccid myelitis”.
As recently as the 1940s/50s, polio was disabling tens of thousands of Americans every year. Are you suggesting that its elimination via vaccines was a bad thing?
And there is zero evidence that AFM is caused by vaccines. Considering that it is seasonal, extremely rare but increasing since 2014, and almost always follows viral infection, it makes no sense to blame it on a vaccine that has been around for decades.
https://www.cdc.gov/acute-flaccid-myelitis/downloads/fs-acute-flaccid-myelitis.pdf
The safety data provided by the company was not even read by the Thrapeutics Goods Administration before eoa in Australia. They’ve admitted such in an foi. The company does not have to provide any further safety data for SIX YEARS.
Mike, from a nurse on Market Ticker: You are thinking the hospital is filled to capacity due to a flood of COVID cases. That might not be the case at all. There is an another explanation that will make sense as soon as it is suggested.The beds may be closed because the hospital does not have the staff to take care of the patients who could possibly fill those beds. The hospital could be closed and there may be a multitude of empty beds in those hospitals.Short staffing is one thing. Critically short staffing is something totally different. A hospital… Read more »
That analogy might make some sense if the risk of a catastrophic vaccine injury approached 50%. It might even make a useful, if extremely hyperbolic, point if the rate of serious vaccine injury were not a tiny fraction of the rate of serious harm from Covid. Neither of those being the case, the credibility of arguments go out the window when such comparisons are made.
Jane, define “catastrophic”. The 1976 swine flu vaccine was pulled for less than the damage being caused by the current jab.
And we really should stop calling this clot shot a vaccine. If it can’t prevent the acquisition or transmission of a disease (see: Israel), then, by definition, it’s not a vaccine.
It does prevent the acquisition and transmission of a disease. It doesn’t do it 100%, but no vaccine does do that. 100% efficacy was never part of the definition of “vaccine” and there’s no reason it suddenly becomes part of it now.
In Israel, the most jabbed nation on the planet, their Ministry of Health says the Pfizer “vaccine” is just 39% effective. According to Science Magazine, Israel is logging one of the world’s highest infection rates, with nearly 650 new “cases” (we’ll leave the discussion of the definition of “case” for another day) daily per million people. Remember the definition of a vaccine, according to 26 U.S. Code § 4132: The term ‘vaccine’ means any substance designed to be administered to a human being for the prevention of 1 or more diseases. At a 39% efficacy rate, does it sound like… Read more »
Israel is not the “most-jabbed nation on the planet”, their over-12 vaccination rate is only about 78%, and that’s still good enough that they have just half as many Covid hospitalizations as Oregon despite having twice the population.
Nothing you said negates my point.
Now, go back to your room and play. The adults are talking, and no one appreciates you butting into conversations where you’re not invited.
It literally fits the definition. And 39% is months out from receiving the vaccine. Once it is received, the efficacy rate is much higher. Surely you’ve read about this, and are just ignoring these details because truth doesn’t matter as much as confirming your worldview.
And you know the long-term effects of the vaccine because….?
I don’t. Do you know the long term effects of Covid, ten years out?
It’s risk analysis either way, but there seems to be an odd tendency on the anti-vax side to treat the known and unknown risks of Covid as something they’re willing to assume, but the known and unknown risks of the vaccine to be intolerable. When it comes to the question of making the vaccine mandatory, that makes a lot of sense. When it comes to the question of whether the vaccine is good or useful at all, it doesn’t make much sense at all.
Jane, we know the long term effects of SARS CoV-2 because we know what happened with those who had the SARS in 2003.
Over 50% of SARS victims showed long-term impact 2 years afterwards. Nearly 30% of health care workers infected with SARS were still unable to return to work after 2 years.
Whelp, there goes that talking point.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7192220/
Jonathan, yes, we do know the long term problems with SARS and you ignored the fine print in your linked article.
Jonathan, are they dead?
Why do you point out the exceptions and attempt to force it as the rule demanding that everyone throw out the baby along with the bath water?
Only 40% of the individuals in the study completed the study. That is a noted fault in the study. Why didn’t you point that out?
“It was reported that 66% of SARS patients in Canada had returned to full‐time work 1 year after SARS.”
True, they’re not dead. But they are living with chronic health conditions from COVID. And in the meantime, the vaccines have show extremely low rates of side effects. It’s exceedingly dumb to risk long haul COVID chasing natural immunity (which doesn’t last) rather than accept a vaccine with virtually no risk of long haul symptoms.
This, strongly this.
Please provide a citation for your claim that the shortage is due to ICU beds being closed. In most (perhaps all?) states you can look up the Department of Health and see how many ICU beds are available and how many are filled, and at least in some (perhaps all?) states you can look up how many are filled with Covid patients. I have yet to see a single state where the total # of ICU beds has been decreased from before the pandemic.
It’s not my claim, so no citation for you.
Besides, that’s not the point I’m making.
Mike. Covid is a scam. I’m a transplant recipient and a covid survivor (yawn) two days of headache and 4 day low grade fever. You’d be better served to look more closely at the hospital business before adding health statistics as correlation. Furloughing staff to concentrate covid patients to higher profit beds, not treating the vascular nature of covid by denying the use of hydroxychloroquine. Hiding the fact that covid assails obese type-2 diabetics and over 70’c with co-mordities hardest. I was symptom free for a week when I developed bacterial pneumonia (non-covid). If I’d stayed in Idaho I’d been… Read more »
Amen!
What kills me is people who double-mask and practically bathe in unhealthy hand sanitizer…then gorge themselves with the worst possible junk at fast food restaurants. It’s like the MSM doesn’t want to talk about 78% of those hospitalized being obese. It’s easier to push a pill or jab developed by fetal cell lines that originated with abortions.
Nearly 80% hospitalized for COVID-19 were overweight or obese – Axios
“I survived therefore Covid is a scam” is a terrible argument considering most people here likely already know someone dead or hospitalized from the disease.
How do you explain over 900,000 excess deaths since the pandemic started? When did they start the “extra death certificates” scam?
https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/05/06/994287048/new-study-estimates-more-than-900-000-people-have-died-of-covid-19-in-u-s
Both my aunts-in-law died from a scam?
It sounds like to me that the hospital your wife works at prioritizes COVID over gunshot victims because they are sucking on the government teet and are financially rewarded by the government for doing so. This is why they must keep the beds full of Covid patients.
That’s a hospital not interested in actual Healthcare.
I would flee.
You misread Mike – he’s referring to the well-known Texas case, not his wife’s hospital. And they’re doing normal triage procedure which involves those most likely to die without immediate intervention getting the most urgent attention.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/08/16/joel-valdez-houston-covid-hospitals/
We know the ‘vaccines’ don’t stop anyone from getting or spreading the disease. It seems that the shot does often help minimize the severity of the disease, reducing the likelihood you’ll got to the hospital. So the only true benefit to society from being jabbed with this experimental potion is it may reduce the load on the hospital somewhat. In your mind, this small benefit to healthcare workers and hospitals is worth forcing people to take this experimental jab? It’s ok to you that we force our entire population to take this experimental jab that may very well cause serious… Read more »
This is false and could be solved with a simple google search. Why are so many conspiracy theorists bad at googling?
The vaccines sharply reduce transmission and severity of the disease. That effect wanes several months out, but is still stronger than natural immunity over the same timeline. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02689-y
(((Freeman)))
Forgive us for not trusting a single word that falls out of the hole beneath your beak.
Just in case anyone isn’t familiar with the triple parentheses trope, also called the echo, the point is to put them around the names of people known or suspected to be Jewish. Bower is suggesting that Mike Freeman may be Jewish and that anything he says is therefore a lie. Bower also refers to Freeman’s nose as a beak. Gee, what could he possibly be getting at there?
Nothing like going full Daily Stormer to silence people who disagree with you. The Andrew Anglin touch does so much to class up a Christian board.
What’s interesting is that the last name Bower has Jewish (Ashkenazi) roots. There’s a fair chance our friend Wyatt has Jews in his family tree.
If so, those long-dead Ashkenazis must be looking at Bower and wondering when the intelligence genes disappeared from the family gene pool.
Thank you, Wyatt. Thank you for being open about your abhorrent bigotry. It really does help show the world what kind of people the anti-vaxxer / q / conspiracy theorists are making common cause with.
You make a great point. This “pandemic” has been so politicized that actual, genuine, real medical issues and emergencies such as heart attacks and strokes come second in priority to much less serious and non-deadly COIVD cases. This is because of politics and it is insane. Your wife should be irate that heart attack patients, stroke patients, and the like are taking a back seat to some folks with a highly survivable respiratory condition. That is foolishness. You and your wife are mad at the wrong people. You should be angry with the bureaucrats who are willing to let people… Read more »
That’s not what’s happening. The hospitals triage who is admitted based on severity of condition. Once the patient is in the hospital’s care, the hospital can’t kick them out just because someone with a more serious condition shows up.
You are insulting dedicated and hardworking healthcare professionals who have sacrificed tremendously to keep people alive since this pandemic began.
My wife is also a critical care nurse. By By “Covid patients” do you mean all the vaccinated patients who test positive for Covid while being treated for other illness but have no Covid symptoms? If one Covid positive patient tests positive for Covid multiple times does your wife’s hospital have a system in place so they don’t count each positive test as a Covid case? Or is each positive Covid test counted as a case of Covid? Do they differentiate between patients who die with Covid and those who die of Covid? It is sad that your wife’s hospital… Read more »
The hospitals can do triage between covid patients and other serious medical conditions, oh, no they can’t because good treatment protocols are being suppressed by media, big pharma, and our masters in silicon valley. Check out No Jab for Me, The Zelenko protocols, America’s Frontline Doctors. Look, I was a paramedic/firefighter for 30 years in Los Angeles. We had six trauma centers close in my time because of illegals. The hospitals couldn’t afford it. They asked for help from the Federal government (who control the borders) for money, and all they got was a NO. It was a manufactured crisis… Read more »
Steven, America isn’t the only country in the world. There are numerous nations that promoted HCQ heavily and it didn’t work
And your “America’s Frontline Doctors” recommendation was an effort funded by the Tea Party and filmed by Breitbart, and primarily involved people who had very poor credentials in virology (not to mention that half the speakers were neither experts NOR “frontline doctors”). You probably shouldn’t get medical information from people who are explicitly making political propaganda.
Jonathan – Ivermectin and HCQ are on the WHO’s list of essential medicines. Look it up.
The fact that you linked something previously from NPR yet you call frontline doctors political propaganda proves a lot about your thinking or lack thereof. Another group of doctors sticking their necks out for the proven (for decades) medicines aforementioned.
https://covid19criticalcare.com/
Yes, they are both essential for treating parasites. As far as I’m aware, neither has ever been approved for viral treatment in the 40+ years they’ve been on the market.
And your logic attacking my evidence doesn’t make any sense. I linked NPR simply reporting an academic study, they had no part in the creation of the study at all. How is that comparable to a group of “doctors” whose effort was completely organized by the GOP, funded by the Tea Party, and produced by Breitbart?
Jonathan, Peru approved ivermectin for use against COVID (caused by a virus) in May 2020. From a study* published in the American Journal of Therapeutics: There is also evidence emerging from countries where ivermectin has been implemented. For example, Peru had a very high death toll from COVID-19 early on in the pandemic. Based on observational evidence, the Peruvian government approved ivermectin for use against COVID-19 in May 2020. After implementation, death rates in 8 states were reduced between 64% and 91% over a two-month period. Another analysis of Peruvian data from 24 states with early ivermectin deployment has reported… Read more »
And that’s how you get embarrassed publishing outdated research. The study you cite for Peru ended in October 2020. Peru proceeded to have a massive surge in deaths from January to June 2021, with the deaths peaking in March/April. About 60% of Peru’s Covid deaths came AFTER the widespread distribution of Ivermectin, and their death rate has remained extremely high.
The reduction in Sept 2020 was just the natural come-down after deaths had already peaked in June, long before Ivermectin was widely distributed.
Mike, I appreciate your perspective about the dangers of not taking the vaccine and the results you’ve found. I believe it is every individual’s choice as to what actions they take – or choose not to take – in regards to their personal health. I am saddened that those in need of medical care haven’t been able to receive it. However, accusing that those who make different decisions than yourself are killing people is unwise and inflammatory. Even if not taking the vaccine is putting those people who choose not to get it in a higher risk of death than… Read more »
No one cares if you choose not to get vaccinated and ruin your own health. Go for it. The problem is that your selfishness puts everyone around you at risk. It’s a pandemic with a highly transmissible and serious disease. You are not making an individual decision.
Hospitals would not be full if pts were actually treated. Look at cdc protocol.. just a bed, fluid, oxygen and wait for vent need. If people were treated with the off the shelf drugs that work they would not be in hospital. Also.. keep in mind that a full hospital is full due to many reasons not just covid. They want their ICU to be 90%or more or they can’t make money. They were receiving extra $ for covid so everything got labeled covid. How many flu cases were there?…The tests are 60 to 90% false and cdc in late… Read more »
There’s way too many false claims there to keep up with, but just to counter one: It is absolutely false that the CDC told hospitals to run different cycle numbers for vaxxed/unvaxxed in order to scam the numbers. Vaxxed and unvaxxed are tested via the exact same criteria.
https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/pcr-tests-on-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-people-are-evaluated-using-the-same-criteria-the-cdc-didnt-change-criteria-for-detecting-infection-in-vaccinated-people-as-alleged-in-off-guardian-a/
There is ample evidence that what is killing people is the bad advice from the those who are staging the pandemic. Tess Lawrie, Pierre Kory and others have written papers describing research and treatment protocols that could, at least end the infections (if not the invective). Hint: they include a potion that sounds something like “Ivor decked him”. The statistics are there for all to see. And the accounts of people who have used these protocols (though I hasten to add, narrative is not necessarily proof) are stark in their positive outcomes. One of the issues making the pandemic ‘fake’,… Read more »
Why is it then that the nations which have heavily promoted Ivermectin have not seen any corresponding reduction in their death rates? Latin American nations were using it like crazy and still saw the pandemic rage through their countries with no apparent dampening effect at all.
Their study was not high enough quality to be taken seriously. https://www.politifact.com/article/2021/jun/30/what-know-about-pro-ivermectin-groups-study-toutin/
Perhaps before you cut down others, you should consider doing a bit of research. I have. Most of the critical covid patients that are currently hospitalized are there because there immune systems have been ravaged by the mRNA gene therapy that is commonly misnamed the “covid vaccine.” It is not a vaccine, but it is killing people either outright or through devastating the patients’ bodily systems, especially the immune system. In India, where very few have been vaccinated and where the delta variant is currently running its course, most people only have very mild symptoms, similar to having a cold,… Read more »
All of this is made up. To correct:
* The delta variant was devastating in India
* mRNA vaccines are not “gene therapy”
* The vast majority of those hospitalized are unvaccinated
* The unsuccessful animal trials you refer to were a completely different vaccine for a different disease and they were designed in a different way – that’s the whole reason you have trials.
I call bull crap. I LIVE in Cape Coral Fl and this is NOT the case here. Lee County Health is nowhere near flooded with “Covid”’cases and nurses are NOT working tons of overtime for Covid. Then this guy says “just google it”. Seriously?! This guy is lying.
This Lee County Health?
Lee Health doctors beg people to get vaccinated as hospital system records ‘unprecedented’ COVID numbers
Lee Health is treating 639 COVID-19 patients and its hospitals are at 100% staffed operational bed capacity. Of the 639 patients, 15 are being treated at Golisano Children’s Hospital.
https://nbc-2.com/news/health/covid/2021/08/30/lee-health-doctors-beg-people-to-get-vaccinated-as-hospital-system-records-unprecedented-covid-numbers/
OOPS! Maybe your news source is lying?
Maybe there should be more promotion of the effective therapies, e.g., HCQ, Ivermectin, as well as healthy lifestyles and boosting of immune systems (Vits. C, D, Zinc, etc.) in Florida.
Such therapies were heavily promoted in places like India, Brazil, and Peru, and they still showed devastating outcomes from the virus. Every large-scale controlled study across the world has shown minimal if any benefit from those two anti-parasite medications, even the ones conducted in Brazil that had governments extremely positive towards their use.
Don’t know if what you are saying is true or not but I have retired physicians around me who are “still connected” within the industry and one told me that many, many doctors are telling their patients to NOT get the jab, since no one knows the long-term effects and all animal studies were forfeited.
This reminds me of how Corrie Ten Boom would escape the clutches of the curfew/lockdown the Nazis imposed upon her city: When questioned about why she was out and about illegally she would answer that she was on the way to hear the last will and testament of her older brother who had died (that answer being an entirely appropriate definition of a church service). Apparently (and not without current irony) immediate family business was allowed by the Nazis. So while not outright lying, she was deceiving her enemy while being obedient to God.
That’s genius. “Our older brother who died.”
The Revolt of the Public by Gurri was a good read on how and why Trump made it to the white house. He wrote the book before Trump was president, then added a chapter to it, kind an an “I told you so”. The book is on the loss of legitimacy by the ruling class.
I think the Red Team will probably take over Congress again, but that I liken that to sitting next to the really stinky kid in class, where he swaps seats with another really stinky kid who puts cologne on to try and cover it up.
You don’t really think that we’re going to VOTE our way out of this, do you?
Also, don’t be stupid. I’ve seen several stories of the Feds arresting people for creating and selling fake vaccine cards for big $$. Don’t do that.
I don’t know the extent to which vaccine cards are actually checked; if it’s like an underage drinker flashing a fake driver’s license at a bar bouncer, or if it’s looked at more thoroughly than that. But I am quite certain that if someone does actually check, it’s fairly simple to find out if the person actually was vaccinated or not. The health care provider who administered the vaccine would certainly have a record of it, and I suspect the manufacturers keep records too for liability purposes. So at bare minimum you’re playing with fire. US law permits fines up… Read more »
A five minute blood test shows whether someone has been vaccinated. If people resort to widespread deception, employers will undoubtedly ask for the blood tests as well. The specific batch of vaccine someone receives is recorded on his/her card and is entered into a data base along with other details.
Now he’s making a case for lying about having had a vaccine via a counterfeit vaccination card. And you wonder why so many people outside of the Blab and Moblab crowd think Doug Wilson is a quack? For the life of me, I can’t fathom what attracts you to him and why you excuse his current and previous reprehensible behaviors.
And it would be impossible to overstate my disagreement with what he has written today. I never said last week that I agree with Doug even most of the time. What I said last week is that disagreement–even vehement disagreement–is different from character assassination on Doug’s own board. Rather than calling Doug a reprehensible quack, why not take apart this argument in the hope of persuading at least one person that lying to avoid a shot isn’t quite the same thing as hiding Anne Frank in your attic at great peril to yourself.
A reprehensible quack? Isn’t that an apt description of someone who, without a medical background, makes medical claims, and dispenses medical advise to thousands of readers? And what’s worse, he’s giving medical advice pertaining to a pandemic that has killed more 600,000 friends, neighbors, and loved ones. Maybe you should be more concerned with what Doug has written than with what some yahoo thinks about his character, assassinated or otherwise. Take apart the argument? What argument? Jonathan has spilled 55 gallon drums-full of digital ink attempting to clarify misconceptions that so many commenters have about this pandemic, to little or… Read more »
M&M:
Then he should leave. It’s clear he doesn’t value his own time.
Then that makes two of you. Only difference is Jonathan’s comments make sense. Your’s, not so much. Have a nice day.
Glad we agree that Jonathan should leave.
Have a nice day.
Jonathan is doing the Lord’s work and I applaud him for it. Keep up the good fight, Jonathan. Even if these sheep refuse the truth, at least you are demonstrating that you are thoughtful, respectful, and competent – which is probably a lot different than how their echo chamber portrays “the other side.”
Martha and Mary, if you think that Wilson is wrongly dispensing medical advice, then you really should get after President Green along with Mayor Lambert and the Moscow City Council for their medical demands and medical advice last year.
Of course, you can’t do that because they put out the choice morsels which go right to please your taste. You really do need to just start tolerating a bit.
Dave, please get back on your meds. There must be a bingo game at the nursing home you’re missing out on.
Gentle Readers, Martha and Mary show us just how loving, caring and tolerant homosexuals are toward Christians and others who do not share their desires. There is no tolerance from homosexuals.
Please, please, for your children’s and grandchildren’s sake, get back on your meds. It’s like you’re drooling all over the comment section.
What are you, two years old? Seriously… :eyeroll:
55 gallons of ink from legacy media sources (whose credibility should’ve gone out the window decades ago) and gatekeepers under tremendous pressure to keep a certain narrative going. What part of “probable deaths count for COVID but not vaccines,” the insanity of legal immunity for vaccine makers and financial rewards for high COVID numbers do you not understand? It’s hilarious how leftists dare not criticize crony capitalism run by elites…while constantly reviling the non-crony version they don’t even understand.
The argument I think you should focus on is not the medical one. It is clear that most people have already decided whom they choose to believe about the severity of the virus, the effectiveness of the vaccines, and the legitimacy of the government’s role in curtailing it. We are at the point that nobody here will change his mind no matter how much contrary evidence is presented. Once someone has concluded that everything reported by the government and mainstream media is a lie, there is literally nothing that can possibly change his mind–except, as we have seen, tragic personal… Read more »
Not for nothing, “a leopard never changes his spots”.
If you have to try convincing a 60+ year old, moderately educated “Christian” pastor, that lying to to keep one’s job is akin to saving Anne Frank et al, I’m pretty certain it’s waste of time. I don’t recall in the past 5+ years Wilson ever having a meaningful dialogue with a commenter who disagrees with him. But I do encourage you to try.
To be honest, this wasn’t the overstatement I was hoping for.
M&M, Whatever you think of Doug, he provides far more scope for detractors and has far thicker skin than 99%of people with a public platform. He is hosting this on his own site, where he can easily disallow or delete negative comments, but he doesn’t. He has also responded to several “letters” from me and others that were sharply critical. I certainly think that Doug is making grave errors in this post, and in many other recent posts. But notice that I, nor Jill, nor Jonathan, nor other longstanding commenters here engage on your practice of demeaning and sneering. Are… Read more »
I would love nothing more than a serious conversation. But how do you have one with the likes of the FP dude, the Cherrera lady, or JP Stewart, and a plethora of others. Jonathan, Jill, and you gets ZERO traction with any of these types or Wilson, for that matter. We aren’t talking about whose going to win the world series, these are life and death issues. Please cite some instances where you have had positive influence on one of Wilson’s disciples. Wilson just loves throwing chum into the water and watching his faithful lemmings take the bait. If it… Read more »
M&M, A few things: 1. The people you listed arent the entirety of the commentariat. And there are many who lurk/read comments but aren’t active. Communicating in this forum isnt dyadic. Also, commenters vary on their erudition and reasonableness. 2. I have had many long interesting discussions here over the years (much of it is lost because I deleted my disqus years ago). Some of those conversations have been fruitful – I have learned something or found new resources. If you are only interested in convincing others you are unlikely to be a good conversation partner. Also, many of my… Read more »
What’s your standard for judging others?
Higher than this.
Someone who’d had Covid would have antibodies too.
From what I have read, no one can tell exactly how long they will last. They have been found in some people nine months after initial infection. Whether they’ll have those antibodies five years from now is anyone’s guess. The other unknown is the degree of protection the antibodies offer to someone exposed to a COVID variant.
“manufacturers keep records too for liability purposes.”
There is no liability for the drug companies. This has been fact since 1986, along with being a major issue.
It also appears to be that you’re describing (advocating for?) a medical Stasi that would envelop and permeate any business that has a retail facing location, allowing them instantaneous access to anyones private, at least until now, medical data. Obviously this would be used for only the most noble of purposes and never expanded into even more noble purposes. Dost this botherest thou?
Jake, if that actually were my position it would bother me.
Hey Mike
Did any nurses at your wife’s hospital put on any TikTok dance videos?
The manufacturers have no liability, so…
Nick, it is a Federal crime to counterfeit the CDC jab card. That being said, what has happened the last few years violates the US Constitution and those laws are not valid. The problem is that the judges and prosecutors are bought off and knowingly prosecute and jail folks following the Constitution.
The next thing you know, they will start requiring government licenses just to drive a car. Next, they will stop drivers to test for their BAC, instead of relying on individual responsibility. Tyranny!!!
I’d like to point out none of the peanut gallery will recognize that AZ, J&J, Pfizer, and Moderna all contain some link to abortion. Some more, some less. Before you laugh about it, consider that for some people this presents a serious ethical dilemma. If your first response is that it’s for the greater good you are simply employing the same reasoning ancient cultures did when they fed children to Molech.
But using a fraudulent certificate makes it appear as if you have overcome those ethical objections and gone ahead with the shots. The more people who overcome their objections to using vaccines tested on fetal tissue lines obtained by abortion, the less incentive pharmaceutical companies will have to develop alternative methods. People who trust your moral judgment may be more likely to get the actual shots–and how can you tell them not to? You’ve squandered your moral authority.
Tyranny is when the government prohibits worship as happened in 2020 and is happening again this year. Tyranny is when the government uses a virus with a 2% death rate to destroy the US and world economies claiming it will kill us all. Tyranny is when the government forces healthy citizens to stay at home on house arrest when the law says that only sick are supposed to be quarantined. Tyranny is when the government mandates masks or vaccines for everyone when the law only allows for isolation or quarantine of sick, infected individuals. Tyranny is when the government prohibits… Read more »
Tyranny is when the government forces healthy citizens to stay at home on house arrest when the law says that only sick are supposed to be quarantined. Tyranny is when the government mandates masks or vaccines for everyone when the law only allows for isolation or quarantine of sick, infected individuals.
Where does “the law” say that? Please be specific.
Elliot, SARS CoV-2 didn’t fit the bill. Instead tyranny was illegally and forcefully imposed on Idaho residents. Idaho has specific laws that give authority to the Director of Public Health and Welfare and that authority is limited. Last year, when Idaho’s Governor Little, issued his emergency orders, he used incorrect Idaho law citations. That error was taken to court by concerned preachers and Christians in North Idaho, but the case was dropped because Governor Little changed the emergency order when it was obvious that he violated the US and Idaho Constitutions along with Idaho law. When the emergency order was… Read more »
You first claim was that “only sick, infected” individuals could be affected by the orders. The law you just quoted shows your claim was false.
Jonathan, if the individual is not sick or infected, the Director puts himself at high risk if he orders someone else quarantined, isolated or restricted. The law is quite clear about that also.
My claim still stands despite your accusation.
What about household members? My daughter’s ENT specialist insisted on a COVID test before putting a scope down her throat. She tested positive, the ENT doctor informed the County, and I was quarantined along with Caroline for 14 days.The official notice basically said nobody in or out and that we could go to jail if we didn’t stay home. This reminded me of putting my whole family in quarantine when I managed to catch scarlet fever as a child. Back then there was a scary looking notice attached to the door! So aren’t public health officials permitted to quarantine the… Read more »
Jill, Idaho law and health rules allow for some overlap, but that overlap is limited and open to judicial review if the individuals resist the order. It is better if those who are with family members take care of themselves in the same manner that mom or pop stay home from worship with the kids that are sick. In really dangerous times, you don’t need uncle to tell you to stay home if you are living with sick family. God bless you as we all work our way through this mess. NYC ordered that without the jab paperwork your options… Read more »
Do you know the cycle threshold used in the pcr test that resulted in your daughter’s positive? In Ontario, the powers that be are running 35 cycles and higher, generating more than 90 percent false positives.
I don’t know that. She didn’t get tested until she was over the worst of her symptoms and then she continued to test positive for a long time. This was back in March 2020 and they weren’t using the rapid test. I am not sure if the reason she was positive several months later is that she ended up having Long Covid–a horrible and debilitating syndrome. This made it impossible to work out where she might have picked it up. She was in Venice for Carnival right when the Italian cases started to explode. I have no doubt, from her… Read more »
You can call it tyranny if you want, but it’s not unconstitutional. It’s only unconstitutional if the government imposes more restrictions on religious gatherings than non-religious gatherings. That’s the law, whether you like it or not.
https://apnews.com/article/us-supreme-court-california-religion-coronavirus-pandemic-health-91a71d76f0cfdab1f53ae271c87c0708
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-fact-check-keeping-businesses-open-co/partly-false-claim-it-is-unconstitutional-to-shut-churches-businesses-halt-gun-sales-and-ban-assembly-idUSKBN22X249
I understand that you’re just being facetious, negative, and intentionally idiotic, but all of that can be bypassed by not using public roads.
Why do you believe the government has sovereignty over your body?
Why do you believe the government has sovereignty over your body?
I don’t know if it should, but it does. I’m old enough to remember military conscription, and there are laws forbidding me from injecting myself with heroin.
Yes, indeed we do have a tyrannical government that is using the SARS CoV-2 to become even more tyrannical.
Thank you for helping us to see that more clearly.
No, it does not violate the Constitution. Just because your pastor or your talk radio host says so doesn’t make it true. If “what has happened the last few years” violates the Constitution, then do what the Constitution says and bring your lawsuit to court. You will lose because you are wrong.
I read one of your longer comments a couple months ago when he wrote on the issue of vaccines in 2019. As I remember, you’re a doctor who recognized the difficulty in navigating the use for vaccines to prevent or end brutal diseases where the vaccine origins may be linked to abortion. Is that correct? I thought your comments were thoughtful even where I may have disagreed.
I’d be interested to hear how you are interpreting the evolving dynamic with regard to C-vid and vaccines.
Thanks,
Jordan
I wish the media was intelligent enough to really call us “poltroons”.
👍🏻
I think it depends on the media. I expect that most people with a decent journalism degree are familiar with “poltroon.” More important is whether they think their readers are familiar with it. I think that writing an interesting, impassioned editorial while keeping your readability level at tenth grade is actually quite an achievement.
10th?! I’d say they’re aiming a good deal lower than that.
The whole “readability” issue is very interesting. It used to be said that the New York TImes had a readability index (RI) around tenth grade. USA Today was seventh or eighth. The average Harlequin Romance novel has a RI of fifth or sixth grade. But now the people who calculate these things consider the NYT and WSJ to be twelfth grade or junior college level. I don’t know how much–if any–of this is derived from actually testing people’s ability to read the WSJ! Some people dispute the whole idea of readability, but many serious readers these days are complaining that… Read more »
What is the dispute on readability? I feel like the question is not if media outlets should attempt to be readable, but why the general public appears to be declining in its ability to read.
I have a relative who insists on using the most *apt* words in his conversations, and the most apt word is not always the easiest word. I was usually able to keep up with him and didn’t mind asking for clarification if he got too “high” for me. We shouldn’t have to always sacrifice aptness for ease of understanding.
The dispute is that none of the four or five common reading indexes assign the same level of difficulty to the same passage. One will say seventh grade while another says college level. To determine reading level, they use different combinations of word length and sentence length and assign those factors different weights. And, in order to be meaningful, samples of material assigned a tenth grade reading level must be tested on actual tenth grade readers and the result must be consistently reliable. It’s no use to base current assessments of reading difficulty on the results from tests conducted thirty… Read more »
I amend my statement then. I wish we were intelligent enough as a society to use the word “poltroon” in regular conversation.
But wait… does this mean that we can use that word with impunity since no one will know what we’re saying to them??
Anyone who doesn’t know “poltroon” never knew Reepicheep, and that is very sad.
I’m thinking of a poltroon right now. He’s very mousey, too! But not at all in the same way as Reepicheep.
You’re not by any chance referring to Mickey and China?
Not hardly. A little closer to home – northern Idaho.
Mickey (either location) is closer to some of us!
I know poltroon but I don’t know Reepicheep. Is there anyone else on this board who has never read the novels of Lewis and Tolkien? Talk about being a stranger in a strange land.
Really?
Someone hoping Wilson goes to jail?
The squeeze is on.
https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2021-08-22/radio-host-who-regretted-vaccine-skepticism-dies-of-covid?utm_id=35962&sfmc_id=1734303
We could start an anecdote war where I post stories of formerly healthy people who died shortly after receiving the vaccines and the regret their families feel while you post anecdotes of people who didn’t get the vaccine and who died of covid with regrets. Then I could post stories of people who did get the vaccine who died of covid anyway. And we could have lots of fun.
The difference, of course, being that there are 650,000+ anecdotes on one side that have the strong backing of their attending doctors, and virtually none on the other side. Yes, when you give out over 350 million shots, by random chance some of the recipients will die at some point in the next couple weeks (8000 Americans die every day, in many cases via unforeseen heart attack, stroke, or embolism). There is no evidence at all that deaths randomly associated with vaccines are anything more than that outside of a few cases you could count on your fingers.
The EU has a very good database with lots of info. https://www.adrreports.eu/en/index.html check the middle of the page and scroll to “covid” to find the link to the actual information. You can check out very specific incidents like heart disease and blood/clotting problems.
650,000+ anecdotes of people who regretted their choices and died of covid?! Are you suggesting that all or the majority of the covid deaths in this country are of people who could have avoided the virus if they’d just “listened to the experts,” and made better choices? I’m not surprised that you wouldn’t have heard many of the anecdotes from the other side (those who’ve mysteriously died after the vaccines) and would have dismissed the ones you did hear. But your suggestion that every covid death was the result of ignorant and irresponsible choices from the victim is beyond the… Read more »
What is the source of your information about COVID vaccine deaths? Please share.
Multiple sources of people reporting deaths of loved ones, most young and previously healthy, dying suddenly within days of receiving the vaccine. Like the local guy, age 27, no health problems, who got the vaccine for the sake of a would-be employer who required it. A few days later he was dead. No apparent cause. No warning except an unexpected and unusual nosebleed the day before. His funeral service was made public. And like the neighbor I ran into who told me of her previously healthy brother-in-law in his 40s who was working security at a vaccine event and got… Read more »
Thank you for sharing. Those are indeed sad stories. They don’t persuade me that the vaccine is, on the whole, unsafe. I’ve had 2 jabs of the Phizer and plan to get the booster. Same with my spouse and immediate family.
Your chance of contracting Covid is orders of magnitude greater than actually dying from the vaccine.
I hope you and your family stay well.
Thank you, M&M. I understand why these stories wouldn’t necessarily persuade someone not to get the vaccine. But they should certainly give pause to someone who thinks it’s okay to force or coerce others to get it against their will.
Something to remember about these anecdotes Ree – over 375,000,000 covid shots have been given in the USA alone. And even before the pandemic, over 8000 people died every day in the USA. Many of those deaths were sudden, without prior warning. With that many hundreds of millions of shots, it is mathematically certain that several thousand deaths would randomly line up with a shot. That’s just how chance works. However, if the vaccines were at all dangerous, then there would have been some sort of spike in deaths back in May when up to 3 million shots were being… Read more »
I didn’t say anything about “ignorant and irresponsible choices”. I am pointing out that there are about 650,000 cases of doctors/coroners affirming that their unvaccinated patient died of Covid. While there are no more than a handful of cases where a doctor/coroner found a Covid vaccine to be the cause of death.
In addition, you have ignored the rest of my point.
I notice the same blog owner who mocks Covid “fear” and insists on rejecting preventative measures like the vaccine also says that any man who doesn’t own a gun to protect his family is a failure. Strange considering the likelihood of a family member dying via homicide is many orders of magnitude lower than the likelihood of a family member dying cause you gave them Covid.
Guns are used to stop more than just homicide. You must include all violent crimes. The 2019 statistics for violent crime in the usa was 366 per 100,000. The covid mortality rate was 123 per 100,000 in the usa. So no, there is no inconsistency in in our host admonishing men to be prepared to protect their families with the use of a gun while also admonishing them to not allow fear to dictate their response to covid.
Wasn’t it pretty disingenuous of you to just say that all violent crime counts (not just deaths) but then ignore the rest of Covid cases and only include deaths? You know your numbers wouldn’t look good at all if you compared like to like.
And the vast, vast majority of violent crime will not be prevented by people having guns in their homes.
What I find disingenuous is you comparing to issues that are about as similar as apples and Antarctica.
Apparently you found the comparison just fine until I caught you distorting the stats.
Sorry, no, I didn’t distort the stats. One of my points in bringing up your failure to include violent crimes in the stats was to show how dissimilar these issues are and even by the metric you attempted to compare them you were wrong. The point still remains guns are used for far more than preventing homicide. Violent crimes are grossly under reported to the police. Also there are many times guns are used to peacefully avoid a violent crime. These events are rarely reported to the police.
Again, if you say “guns are for more than preventing deaths!” then you have to also admit that Covid vaccines are for more than preventing deaths. But you don’t want to compare like to like.
And once again, the vast majority of violent crime has zero chance of being prevented by having a gun in your home – in fact every comparative study has found higher violent crime rates in homes with guns than without.
Jonathan, every answer you give reveals your ignorance about guns is worse than those conducting the studies you mention. There are thousands of accounts of guns stopping violent crimes. it is doubtless many more go unreported.
Actually every response you made to Jonathan’s comments reveals either your ignorance or duplicity about gun vs. covid death statistics.
According to the 2019 CDC report, gun deaths were 12.1 per 100,000. Total deaths were 37,595.
https://wonder.cdc.gov/controller/saved/D76/D99F025
According to the CDC, 2020 Covid death rate was 91.5 per 100,000. Total 2020 Covid deaths were 375,000. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7014e1.htm
I am a gun owner and at least as of 3-4 years ago I had read virtually every study ever done (at least in America) on how gun ownership and possession relates to violent crime rates. I’ve already debated that endlessly here – you can look to Pastor Wilson’s posts on the subject years ago if you want to go down that rabbithole. The evidence strongly supports that gun ownership does nothing to decrease violent crime in general and almost certainly increases deadly violent crime specifically.
Is there an app for that ID?
How about finding doctors who are willing to squirt the jab down the drain and sign the papers.
If you can find such a doctor, who is willing to risk both prison and loss of license (falsifying medical records is a felony), let us know.
Mike, there are plenty around. They certified SARS CoV-2 deaths when the individual passed away because of other complications.
There are plenty of docs and administrators who are willing to falsify Medicare and Medicaid paperwork to enable them to skim a few bucks here and there.
Amen to those “pesky facts”…in addition to all the other “lies” our leadership have jammed down our throats…!
Lies, yes, like these: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/11/trumps-lies-about-coronavirus/608647/
Please provide documented, credible, specific evidence. Thanks.
Definitely wouldn’t let you know.
According to some readers it should be easy, considering in their minds the vast majority of 650,000 Covid deaths not to mention all reports of overflowing ICU rooms and such are just money-hungry doctors lying to us all.
Once again, Jonathan tosses around numbers based on so many questionable assumptions that the end result is laughable (to use one of Jonathan’s favorite overused terms). If you look at COVID from the perspective of chaos theory, the whole thing became unstable around April-May 2020.
Here’s strong evidence from a right-wing hero more up your alley. I’m still waiting to hear how the doctors faked nearly 600,000 extra death certificates above normal in 2020 (and over 300,000 more so far in 2021).
https://www.takimag.com/article/lets-be-over-and-done-in-21/
A “hero” up my “ally”? Pretty weird. Sounds like someone needs to take a break from full-time internet commenting.
In Jonathan’s usual fashion, he edits a comment instead of owning up to a mistake. Just like he’s doubled down on falsehoods so many times before. That says a lot about his character–or lack thereof.
Cherrera, everyone can see the timestamp when I fixed a minor typo and the later timestamp when you commented. It says I edited the comment 13 minutes ago and you didn’t comment until 7 minutes ago. You apparently had loaded the page earlier and failed to refresh before commenting.
Now since you were so insulting and self-righteous regarding owning up to mistakes, I expect a gracious apology.
Sure thing. I don’t have my ego tied up in this, nor do I refresh every 5 minutes. Sorry about that.
“Up your alley” is a fairly common idiom for “more to your liking.” What on earth did you think Jonathan meant?
How can verified vaccine passports comply with HIPAA laws? (The Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 (HIPAA) is a federal law that required the creation of national standards to protect sensitive patient health information from being disclosed without the patient’s consent or knowledge.)
Since no corporation or magistrate will accept liability for medical mal-events resulting from these newfangled vaccines, does it make sense to expose myself to that hazard?
Reed, HIPAA patient privacy rules apply only to “covered entities”–generally medical professionals and health insurance companies. Because most employers and businesses are not covered entities, it is not illegal for them to ask people for proof of vaccination. It would be illegal for your doctor to tell your employer about your vaccination status without your written consent. People who look to HIPAA for protection against vaccine passports are looking in vain. People have also hoped for protection under the ADA. It’s not an ADA violation to ask for proof of vaccination but an employer can’t start questioning the person about… Read more »
Go to the nearest Abortion clinic-Willing to risk prison and loss of license in order to “support women’s choice”
You’d rather have the doctor do the dirty work of dishonesty than doing it yourself?
COVID is a real disease. God sent it. Whether through animals, or through men in lab coats. God sent it, either way. It is a test. The disease itself has cursed many. The historically unprecedented, idolatrous response of authorities has likewise cursed many. The mark of a manly Christian is not whether they are courageous enough to become a COVID plandemic red-piller. (Believing categorically unfalsifiable theories requires no courage.) The mark of a smart Christian is not whether they are courageous enough to refuse the vaccine due to perceived ambiguity. (Being unable to do very basic risk analysis and comparison… Read more »
Re: Mudslide or Meltdown. Doug, do you think a political solution is the answer to the mess we are in? Suppose the Republicans get 400 seats in the House and 95 in the Senate? Do you actually think they would somehow become men with chests and do the very hard work which needs to be done? Even a tiny bit of hard work (defined as taking away of the sow milk from the suckling pigs) would bring yowls of protest? Remember how they wanted to kill grandma?
We’ve gone way past the point of any political solution.
What you’re suggesting is neither a solution nor Christian.
Apart from sensible people like Mike Freeman, and one or two others, I think you are all completely insane, if you’ll forgive my saying so. Will God have to visit you with judgment (in the form of Covid sickness or death) to bring you back to your senses? It might only be a matter of time before he does. I blame the wrong turn American evangelicalism took when it invested so much moral, theological and spiritual energy in articulating elaborate Pre- and Post-Millennial systems, for which there is barely, scarcely a hint in scripture (one single verse in fact), and… Read more »
Brendan, would you consider the refusal of a vaccine for a virus that has a 99% survival rate “completely insane”? The science out there looks to be pointing to the fact that having antibodies left over from having the actual virus are more of a protectant in the long term than the vaccines. Considering that point is it scientifically insane for people to refuse the vaccine? Here’s what’s completely insane-the mandatory vaccine tyrants offering no explanation for why surviving the virus is even a good thing. Why live? These are the same tyrants that support abortion across the world. The… Read more »
Tim, it beggars belief that you imagine there’s an infinite global conspiracy involving the governments of all the nations, the medical and scientific communities, et al., who apparently are fully aware that it would be best not to vaccinate people, yet are investing trillions in research, with world leaders also putting their own careers on the line–and for what? Who gains, if only the pharmaceutical companies?
Brendan you dodge the topic at hand: why vaccinate against a virus that is 99% or greater survivable when studies show longer term benefits from getting the virus and living with the antibodies? The second part of my argument still stands: why submit to the vaccine madness from godless governments that make the argument that we must do all we can-no expense is too much!!!-to save lives from this little virus when they license the wholesale killing of babies in the womb? Don’t you see the contradiction at hand? Don’t you think they at least need to offer you a… Read more »
Tim, If the governments of the world and scientific fraternity believed that by scrapping vaccines, and just letting people catch the virus, because there would be a hugely positive turnout, as in 99% chance of survival, plus being able to live with the antibodies etc–this is what they would have done!!! You’re suggesting, without evidence, that there’s a global conspiracy going on whereby every nation on earth and their scientists and doctors, are playing charades–that is, they know the vaccines are a complete waste, but they are going through the ritual. Do you really believe that??? Here in the UK,… Read more »
I don’t believe in global conspiracies any more than I believe in one government being able to pull off a conspiracy for the main fact that governments are too dumb to do so. But if you think for one moment that your government (or any government) is your friend I’d say that you’ve bought into a conspiracy. It’s a well documented fact that more people have died at the hands of government than have died as a result of war (as if that wasn’t a government initiated event as well). For ex. think Stalin or Mao. Your government is not… Read more »
What you say is in part true. If I died tomorrow the government wouldn’t know or give a fig, because they don’t know me personally. Yes, they want taxes of me (me=a social security number). So I get all that–though its not to say that anonymous “me” doesn’t benefit from things the government do (e.g. I benefit from excellent health care from the NHS, etc, etc). But no, I don’t think of government officials as my personal friend, anymore than the Egyptians thought the same of Joseph, who nevertheless did good for the country in time of a deadly famine.… Read more »
Brendan, I’d be interested in your answer to Tim’s question (“Brendan, would you consider the refusal of a vaccine for a virus that has a 99% survival rate “completely insane”? The science out there looks to be pointing to the fact that having antibodies left over from having the actual virus are more of a protectant in the long term than the vaccines. Considering that point is it scientifically insane for people to refuse the vaccine?“)
Marcia, it’s not that simple.
https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-970830023526
Marcia, see my answer above.
I would also add: if the percentages you speak of were true, and the vaccine therefore not needed, why is are global governments and the global medical establishment taking Covid-19 so seriously to the point of spending trillions, and like politicians, putting their own careers on the line?
Brendan, perhaps money and control are driving factors with our current politicians and their paid in full doctors more than following their oaths of office and their fervently spoken desires to take care of those of us who can actually read. There is only a 1-2% death rate from this virus. It is a variant of the 2003 SARS and those of us who went through that trial know that it is not as dangerous as the governments, media and docs want us to believe. Seriously Brendan, just think about how many Irish were sold into slavery for use in… Read more »
Marcia, see my answer above.
I would also add: if the percentages you speak of were true, and the vaccine therefore not needed, why is are global governments and the global medical establishment taking Covid-19 so seriously to the point of spending trillions, and like politicians, putting their own careers on the line?
Looking only at the survival rate is simplistic. Childlike. The long haul condition is a very important piece of this. If you put innocent children or elderly at risk of lifelong chronic illness, you are despicable.
You’re not the only sane one. Unfortunately your words will mostly fall on deaf ears, or the people on the site will just tear you down. There’s no biblical defense for lying. It just suits their needs right now so they’re justifying it. Easy peasy. “We’re not as bad as them!” No Bible about it.
Katie, there are plenty of biblical defenses for lying. Where is your Bible printed?
-Rahab lied to protect the spies. Should she have told the truth and allowed them to be killed?
-The nurses hid Moses. Should they have told the truth and allowed Moses to be killed?
-When Samson told the truth, it didn’t fare well for him with his godless wife and her friends.
There’s plenty of Bible about it.
So you faking a vaccine passport is like the nurses hiding Moses? Like Rahab protecting spies?
Sigh. I didn’t realize it was a bunch of heroes on this site, not whiny narcissists twisting the Bible for their benefit. Oops.
If thats what you think this site is about, why are you here?
Katie, the death rate is less than 2% and there is no accurate method of determining if the individuals died with complications from other problems or directly from SARS CoV-2. It is less than the more dangerous problems in America, but the fear that is being pushed by our government and the media is enough to demonstrate that it isn’t a serious problem and the restrictions should be laughed at by all. -Why should anyone take a jab if they don’t want to? -Why do American citizens need a jab in NYC to go shopping, but illegals aren’t required to… Read more »
Yes Katie absolutely! Imagine Jesus giving his disciples fake vaccine certificates as he sends them out two by two–just in case they have problems entering towns or villages that are in lock down or masked-up. PETER: So let me get this straight, Master. If an official pulls me up and asks me if I’ve been vaccinated I’m to show him this [waves certificate in front of Jesus]? And if he asks me outright: Have you’ve been vaccinated I’m to say, Yes. What if he asks if the needle hurt or if I’d any side effects? Or he asks me how… Read more »
Not everyone wants to tear down. Some do and that comes with the territory. Some want thoughtful discussion but your own comments so far tend toward personal jabs then measured reasoning.
Katie/Brendan, why call us who disagree with you “insane”? Why not engage with the argument and see if your argument is better? For the life of me I can’t understand the resort to ad hominem when there are actual arguments to be engaged with.
Calling those you disagree with insane is a pretty handy category to have in hand in order for you to feel like you don’t have to engage the merits of an argument you don’t at first agree with.
It could be worse Tim. You could be married to them
“But some of you have a lot of growing up to do.”
You across-the-pond “men” who are scared to death of a virus are something else. No wonder you couldn’t win a major 20th century war with a lot of help from your American friends.
“No wonder you couldn’t win a major 20th century war with a lot of help from your American friends.”
The British soldiers who fought in the two world wars were, at the beginning, outgunned and outmanned. If you think they were cowards, you know nothing whatever about it. Or perhaps it was just a cheap shot at the expense of the million-plus across-the-pond “men” who died on behalf of their country during those two wars.
Once again, he really showed his class there.
And I thought it was only the French who were maligned as weak or cowardly!
Yet the ferocity of the French taunts overcame bold King Arthur and his trusty knights. “Your father was a hamster and your mother smelled like elderberries.” Or the other way around.
I think it was the other way. Everyone knows fathers smell of elderberries
Thoughtful content as usual sir.
Please do consider cloning your youtube channel to odysee.com – Better than Gab and Rumble.
Here’s how
This video was what convinced me to reject the vaccine, especially since we already have natural immunity after getting the bug as a family in Nov.
This Link should work for the next 30 days if people agree with your post.
Wilson swings and hits a drive into center field. It’s way back. Waaayyyy Back! It’s GONE!!!!!!
I’ve seen Wilson take swings at flower pots. More like a swing and a miss.
If it’s untraceable, meaning, Nobody knows you are faking and nobody can catch you for faking, then there’s no cost. However, in any situation where you can get caught in that lie, you are forfeiting the legal high ground, and they will get you on perjury. If it’s Jon’s Diner, and everyone’s faking so Jon doesn’t get in trouble … I’m all for it: plausible deniability. But if we’re talking about Australian police beating you for violating COVID lockdowns, you’d better not be deceitful in any way: if you’ve been beaten by the police, you have a great legal argument,… Read more »
Also, #America….
Where Planned Parenthood can chop babies into pieces, and sell the parts, all supported by tax monies, use the murdered babies’ parts for vaccines or for testing vaccines, and most pastors won’t say ‘boo’.
Apparently, we have to look to Catholics to really bang the drum about that….#Zmirak
Interesting. I think I’m on board with the idea of it, with all said nuance and wisdom in place. It this does go through however, something tells me the endless-funds-for-covid brigade will harness all their resources to make these things difficult to reproduce; I’m think similar security to bills and cheques. They might not, but if they do, we’ll need access to some fairly sophisticated (expensive) means.
The next shot heard around the world will be fired by ethical hackers who will bring down the servers of oppressors.
How and where do we get “good” fake IDs though!? I have not a clue where to start on that, besides trying to make one myself!
Doug’s selling them for $39.95 each. Here’s the link.
Gentle Readers, the link is click bait provided by homosexuals who just want to express their love and care that they tell others they have.
Too bad they didn’t include the actual court documents that give a different story than the link they posted. This has gone on for years and the homosexuals and those who hate God keep trying to start a fire with wet stones.
I’d rather lose my job than lie.
Thats because you have integrity – something few on this site understand.
Katie, what do the Bible stories tell us about deception? That is having integrity also.
Ok 👍🏻
Exhibit A
And it could never be just one lie. What happens when an employer asks someone where he got the vaccine? Or if he is asked to confirm on pain of perjury that his vaccination certificate is genuine? What does he tell his co-workers who heard him say a hundred times that he would never get vaccinated come what may? His friends? His neighbors? It would be one lie after another. Tech companies are already offering employers verification programs. Even if it’s only random checking, how could anyone have peace of mind knowing he could be found out? To be revealed… Read more »
Jill, there is judgement involved here. One of the Air Force majors I knew in Europe was a Bible smuggler to Romania when the Iron Curtain was extremely well guarded. To get Bibles in to faithful Christians, he had to lie to the evil government officials trying to stop the flood of Bibles. That example and the jab are completely different than just fibbing to fib or bearing false witness against someone else. As a note, why are citizens required to get the jab when illegals are not jabbed at the border and are not required to get it? Citizens… Read more »
I think anyone who comes across the border and claims refugee status should be vaccinated as a condition of being allowed to remain here. That is just common sense! I’m vaccinated so I don’t need to worry about grocery stores; at my age and with my not very healthy lungs, it seemed the obvious thing to do. But the LA city council exempted grocery stores and pharmacies from the mandate it voted for. It will also not apply to houses of worship. I see a major difference between the Bible smuggler and someone who obtains a fraudulent certificate. Far from… Read more »
Thank you Nathan. The Christian attitude towards lying has changed dramatically in the last five years.
Dozens of South Florida doctors gathered early Monday to beg people to get a COVID-19 shot, citing their exhaustion and frustration with the flood of unvaccinated patients in their care. “A large majority of hospitalized COVID patients are unvaccinated. This is not only upsetting but it is so frustrating to all of us who are here today,” Dr. Jennifer Buczyner, a neurologist and stroke director at the Jupiter Medical Center, said. “Many of these patients have decided not to get vaccinated, but when they’re vaccinated, they tell us they wish they had.” “We are exhausted. Our patience and resources are… Read more »
Jonathan, This is the same narrative we’ve heard right from the very beginning – its a medical doomsday that never seems to arrive. I’m not an anti-science fanatic. I went to university, I know how to read and watch for peer-reviewed material, and I can sniff out fake news pretty quickly. I agree – some people are ending up in the hospital and that some of them are dying, something is most assuredly happening, but at the same time it seems quite clear that Covid was not the killer virus it was made out to be. Of that I cannot… Read more »
I’m not sure what you think hasn’t arrived. A year ago Pastor Wilson mocked Dr. Fauci for predicting that there could be over 200,000 deaths, saying he was fear-mongering. Well now we’ve had over 900,000 excess deaths in America since March of last year. That’s an insanely high number. I don’t understand how we could call 200,000 “fearmongering” last year and then downplay 900,000 this year.
I’m concerned about our incipient Chinese style social credit system (Just incipient in America, as yet only a proposal. Right? Hello?) , but I’m not so sure fake vaccine IDs are exactly a counter to the power-play. In principal, forcing me to present fake papers in order to pass is not much different than forcing me to present the real thing. “I don’t need no stinking papers to be able to live and to travel about in my own country” is the correct answer. To fake it, no matter how clever it makes one feel, is to concede the point,… Read more »
“I don’t need no stinking papers to be able to live and to travel about in my own country” is the correct answer.
Tell that to the next traffic cop who pulls you over and asks for license, registration and proof of insurance.
If he pulls me over for no other stated cause than to look at my license registration and proof of insurance, I hope I have the courage to tell him that.
Amazing how filled hospitals have nothing to do with Administration forcing unproven, untested vaccines on people. I am happy being the control group. I will wait 2-3 years and see what shakes out. Just found your site and love it!
Good luck! You’re a Great American! Rush will be at the pearly gates to great you with a cigar and some oxycontin.
Since the peak for vaccines was back in May (when hospitalizations were very low, thank God) and since the vast majority of hospitalized people are unvaccinated….your logic doesn’t hold.
https://www.texastribune.org/2021/07/21/coronavirus-texas-vaccinated-deaths/
Using the Bible as a defense to lie. No matter how you characterize it, it’s still a lie. After reading writings from you about how “ abortion is still murder no matter how you slice it“, it’s pretty hilarious to see you defending dishonesty “biblically” because it suits your purpose. Seems like the Bible is the Bible is the Bible, except when you feel like it. Disheartening to read all the comments that agree with you here, but informative to see how much of the population are heretical nuts. Really looking forward to the Doug Wilson version of the Bible… Read more »
Agreed, Bonhoeffer and Ten Boom were criminals.
Their deceptions were not on their own behalf.
As Jacob’s were when when he took his father’s blessing from Esau.
Nice try.
Why do you think Jacob’s deceit was good? God had already promised him the blessing so it would have come regardless. By lying to his father, it created great enmity in his family that had destructive consequences.
Jordan,
Jacob was a thief and he paid a dear price for it. Lathan was not a nice guy. He also lost the love of his life. Read the rest of the story. Are you willing to take those chances?
I doubt if Wilson new what was awaiting him, he’d NEVER had posted this, or his did all other questionable behaviors over the past 30 years.
I don’t understand the “nice try” part. Jacob used deception on his own behalf. The fact that God used his treachery for good doesn’t change the immorality of Jacob’s act. I am a bit surprised that any Christian would defend the fraud as morally neutral or even praiseworthy. Certainly John Calvin didn’t: ” God’s providence is such that His plans will never be thwarted, though He never approves of His people’s sin, even if it contributes to His ends (Rom. 6:1–2). John Calvin’s comments on 27:11 remind us that just because the Lord often uses our perverse acts for our final… Read more »
To be fair, Doug was prioritizing the ability to worship, work, and feed one’s family. Those are not necessarily selfish endeavors.
Those are the priorities for now, although I think people would likely use fake cards for other purposes. I’m assuming that anyone who plans to get a fake card does not actually believe that his/her actions could cause grave illness and possibly death to other people. Or, at least, I’m assuming that any Christian who plans to do this isn’t actually saying, “I believe I’ll be a menace to my co-workers and I couldn’t care less.” So, if you think you pose no harm to anyone by not being vaccinated, why wouldn’t you use your fraudulent card for anything that… Read more »
Really? You’re likening you faking a vaccine passport to hiding Jewish people in your home??????? I didn’t realize how selfless your vaccine refusal was. You’re a hero.
Never said I was getting one just challenging your point that: “Using the Bible as a defense to lie. No matter how you characterize it, it’s still a lie.”
It’s deficient theology.
Katie, This was one of Doug’s key points – “But I would argue that our differences are not over the ethics of the thing but rather are differences over a question of fact—just how diseased has our culture gotten?” It’s easy to characterize those not getting vaccinated as those who selfishly just wanting to go out to eat, the ball game, and the cinema. But many are convinced that these mandated vaccine measures are striking at the very core of God-given liberties, and who also are convinced that the pandemic has been presented as far more dangerous than it really is. So when… Read more »
Agreed.
God didn’t give liberties. Our country did. Unfortunately, that has nothing to do with the Bible. We’re called to suffer if needed… I have no idea why all of you for some reason think that your freedom is guaranteed. The constitution and the Bible are different.
Oh, Katie, you are gravely mistaken on this point. Governments cannot give us liberty, they come from God. This was the understanding of our founders, and it is the clearly taught foundation of God’s word. Governments are meant to PROTECT our freedoms, not grant them. You really should read up on the concept of natural law. You will find it comes quite solidly from the pages of the Bible. Instead of assuming your detractors are all knuckleheads with no understanding of where liberties come from, perhaps you could take a more humble approach and ask, “Hmm, I wonder where they… Read more »
Exhibit B
Really? You don’t see the connection between having to show your papers to hiding Jewish people in your home?
“Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it.” -Churchill
Yeah. Really I don’t. One is for yourself because you are convinced you’re entitled to some “freedom” the Bible doesn’t promise, and hiding jews from nazis was to prevent them from being murdered.
So, really??? You don’t see the difference? 🙄
Perhaps you should ply your histrionics somewhere more to your liking, such as North Korea. I hear they don’t tolerate any of that horrible “freedom” you hate so much.
North Korea is the one country on earth without COVID vaccinations.
It also claims it has no coronavirus cases. What’s your point?
Oh, the irony of your comment!
Trying getting on a commercial flight without your ID. Try opening a bank account with your ID. Try getting a loan with showing your ID. Or a passport. You can’t sign up for Social Security or Medicare without your ID. You can’t rent a car with it. Want to legally purchase a firearm, you need ID. Forget checking into a hotel without one. You need a credit card? Show us your papers.
I could go on, but it wouldn’t help you. If it weren’t an insult idiots, I’d call you one.
Try voting without an ID.
Oops!
And your feeble, gratuitous insult at the end — so loving, so tolerant, so compassionate! The love simply oozes out your every lizard pore. We all wish we could be as morally righteous as you.
I don’t think you understand how a logical argument works FP. He demonstrated very well that there were numerous issues for which you already have to show papers. Pointing out there are issues where you don’t have to doesn’t help you at all.
I wonder how you enforce borders or check people’s legal status if showing papers is equivalent to giving up Jews….
Jonathan, let me know when you can add something substantive to the conversation, rather than trying to spin a written exchange. Until then, go back to your room.
Spud, I see, you can dish it but you can’t take it. Poor baby, there’s a five letter word for that in my neck of the woods. 😿
I’ll be waiting.
This coming from someone who makes endless accusations with not a shred of evidence. You must be murder to live with.
Hit me with your best shot! Your husband’s a lucky man.
Katie, you need to read your Bible again. God blessed many situations where deception was used in order to receive justice (not to thwart it, an important distinction). Rahab in Jericho is one such instance.
Ted,
So you’re telling me that you lying, saying you have a vaccine and faking a document so you go to restaurants, events, and continue to potentially infect others at a job, is like Rehab in Jericho? Gee, didn’t see it like that.
Here is my problem with using Biblical examples to determine the legitimacy of fraudulent certificates. Rahab lied to save lives. She stood to gain nothing from her deception. What lives are being saved if you get a fake vaccination certificate? If you believe that the vaccine may cause injury or even death, your example (appearing to have been vaccinated) may encourage other people who know you to overcome their fears and get the shots. If you believe the vaccination is potentially dangerous, your example might be putting them at risk. In that case, the only life you might be saving… Read more »
“Rahab lied to save lives. She stood to gain nothing from her deception.” That’s not actually true that she stood to gain nothing. Rahab explicitly stated that she knew that the Lord had given the land to the Israelites and extracted a promise that she and her family would be spared when it happened. That sounds like a gain to me. That’s not to defend the argument that faking vaccine passports in order to support one’s family is comparable. I’m still considering the argument. I actually got a vaccine, after first resisting, because I wasn’t allowed to hold my grandkids… Read more »
Australia is the beta test for COVID totalitarianism. I’ve been following a few Christian Australians online, and these are things they’re reporting in some areas (no, you probably won’t read about this on CNN): Mandatory mask-wearing outside (except during “extreme exercise”). Apparently it doesn’t matter if no one is within 30 feet of you. No one can visit your home except one person if you’re single. No travelling outside the U.S. equivalent of a county or in some cases, a 5 km radius. Bans on all outdoor gatherings, eating at restaurants and worship services. These and other measures are enforced by… Read more »
Indeed, our world has changed. So rapidly, just a short while ago, this topic would have been merely satire.
There’s a lot that would have seemed like satire 5 years ago that is acceptable now. We’ve had a great conservative leader come to the national forefront and demonstrate that it was okay to speak falsehood about anything, at any time, against all evidence, so long as it served your personal agenda.
And then inversely, any fact at all that supports the other side of the argument can be called a lie and ignored, no matter how well-sourced.
And we will just continue to ignore Sweden… who did not mask or quarantine.
Had a spike in 2020 just like us and then dropping numbers
With only 50% vaccination rate you would think the delta variant would be running rampant but they have less than 1 covid death per day.
https://mailchi.mp/tomwoods/threecharts?e=176a988991
Instead of comparing them to us, you should compare them to Norway and Finland. Sweden had a Covid death rate 8x higher than Finland and 10x higher than Norway. That’s an enormous difference. Even Sweden’s own king said the policy had failed.
It makes no sense to compare them to USA – Sweden’s population density is a tiny fraction of ours, over 50% of their population lives alone, and they had some of the highest work-from-home numbers in Europe. When you compare them to the like countries on either side, the impact of their decision is clear.
Also to be clear, the idea that Sweden did nothing is false. While they did have a much less strict lockdown, they still asked people to social distance, quarantined nursing homes, closed many schools, some of their largest businesses, more people started working from home, travel dropped by 75% and many vacation destinations dropped by 90%. And yet it wasn’t nearly enough to keep them from having 10x the death rate of their neighbors.
Having read only about 20 of the comments and deciding not to go down the rabbit hole, I have two comments to make myself. ( no one needs to go down my rabbit hole either
Murdering a baby vs. not being forced to inject an experimental drug? There’s hypocrisy alright, but not what you think. You can take every vaccine twice and the next 10 years of booster shots if you want…I’m not stopping you. I simply choose not to. What’s the problem?
It’s still my body , my choice, I am answerable to God not those who would choose to strip me of my bodily agency.
By the way, I am a Mother of six, Grandmother of 19, and great grandmother of four, I am Pro life/Pro choice.. I don’t need any man telling me what I can or cannot do with my body. Butt out.
Amen sister. These aren’t pro life. They’re pro birth. As soon as that baby is born, they couldn’t care less about that child. Especially if it’s black, brown or illegal.
Yup. You should have the right to do anything you want with your body except what you actually want to do with your body, because abortion affects someone else? Totally unlike Covid which has killed over 600,000 people, kept kids and others at home in abusive situations, destroying businesses etc. these idiots not wearing masks and refusing to get a vaccination literally see nothing about how their behavior affects others as long as they have their “freedom”. But a woman’s right to choose what to do with her body? Yeeesh. No freaking way. Guarantee you they’ll be in the hospital… Read more »
Exhibit C
I actually can’t believe this was said.
I know, Wilson’s off his rocker. Glad you see that.
Ha! @martha and mary, that made me laugh out loud. Thank you. Appreciate some sanity on this forum.
Pastor Wilson – if an unvaccinated person fakes a vaccine card while working with immunocompromised patients or children who can’t get the vaccine themselves, and the unvaccinated person ends up infecting others leading to illness and possibly death, could they face very serious consequences in US courts?
More importantly, do you think they will have to answer to God for the consequences of their dishonesty?
Jonathan – if a vaccinated person working with immunocompromised patients or children (won’t someone please think of the children??) who can’t get the vaccine themselves assures them that the vaccinated don’t spread the coronavirus, and the vaccinated person ends up infecting others leading to illness and possibly death, could he face very serious consequences in US courts?
More importantly, do you think he will have to answer to God for the consequences of his hubris, arrogance, and pride?
Unless he was failing to take recommended precautions, then no, I don’t think he would face consequences from the courts. Nor do I see where “hubris, arrogance, and pride” enters into the equation unless he was purposely failing to take precautions and ignoring the possibility that vaccinated can spread due to some issue with pride.
Congratulations, you just refuted your own arguments. Pitting you against yourself can be such fun.
This is the part where you stamp your foot and lamely squeak out some variation of “no, I didn’t!”.
That’s the thing about this vaccine narrative that I don’t like. The “hubris, arrogance and pride” of the vaccine believers, thinking that their special science is the salvation of the ill in their life. How soft we’ve become!
Oh, the irony of your comment. What special science is your salvation from a deathly illness?
By the way, hubris is arrogance.
Of course he doesn’t care, one way or the other. Unless it’s his family. If he did care, he wouldn’t have written this horrible piece.
If the current administration was even 5% as concerned about COVID as they pretend to be, they’d be MUCH more strict about border control and who we’re allowing to enter the U.S. Instead, we get this
Forty percent of migrants released in Texas border city test positive for COVID-19, officials say (yahoo.com)
One of many basic “sniff tests” that gets a failing grade.
While clearly a strain for local systems, on a large scale migrant contribution to spread is meaningless when the # of migrants is a tiny fraction of one percent of the # of unvaccinated Americans already freely spreading the disease. Not to mention that the processed migrants are better tested and far less likely to interact with the general population.
“unvaccinated Americans already freely spreading the disease.” Along with the vaccinated spreading the disease. And unvaccinated with antibodies (and healthy immune systems) who haven’t been spreading it. But hey, let’s stick with the narrative. Do you know the precise number of illegals who have crossed the border since January, BTW? And the number of people they’ve been in contact with? Since the lamda variant has been spreading quickly in S. America…and may be the next late-night scary movie dominating the airwaves/broadband just in time for flu season… wouldn’t it be wise to take strong measures to contain it? Or is… Read more »
You mention orcs and elves, but of course Aragorn would not snare even an orc with a falsehood.
Well, I think it’s clear you’ve lost your mind.
That happened a long time ago.
Pr. Wills – It would be so helpful if each person was limited to four or five posts so we wouldn’t have to slog through their interminable righteous opinions. 😖
Duke, we are standing in the city gates using iron on iron to discuss how scripture is applied right now. Last year, the majority of American churches folded up and closed their doors, running away from worship, instead of being strong and worshiping as scripture commands us to do. We need to worship together, singing hymns, Psalms, hearing the Word preached and taught, taking communion every week with our brothers and sisters in Christ. The state governments did a great job of exposing just how shallow American Christians really are. Go to church, worship, take communion every week, sitting together… Read more »
I don’t know that it is so easy to get working fake vaccine IDs. They come with scannable QR codes linked to the internet. The penalties for being caught are severe also.
[…] To continue reading, click here. […]
[…] An interesting question. At what point have we reached the “papers, please” part of the scale to totalitarianism where there’s a Christian duty to try and thwart the authorities? […]
Hot take.
The pandemic is real. Vaccines help more than they hurt.
At the same time, governments are corrupt and take advantage of every situation that they possibly can.
On a side note, I am agreeing with Jonathan a lot in this thread, though many of his statements are far too absolute as tends to be the habit. That might on its own be a statement on how this turn of conversation has gone.
Just imagine what that comment would be looking like if downvotes were still allowed.
I think this article is good, but it does not deal with Digital IDs. That’s where this crazy train is moving making much of this a moot issue. It is widely used in China already. They are saying they can potentially ID you from your heart beat, not to mention facial recognition in which many Christians have helped them do that from their phones. Also, all those devices that many Christians put in their houses, and our phones, that hear everything we say. Don’t believe me? Speak about something a considerable amount and watch an article pop up about that… Read more »
Yes, and yes! A big “Thank you” from New Mexico!!!
Wilson’s is an interesting argument. Having reviewed the comments below, however, a salient argument is missing: what is the actual risk of dying from COVID? It’s irrelevant how many anecdotes a doctor or nurse in a hospital supplies. These people inevitably suffer the availability bias of being in proximity to very sick people. Look at objective data. Johns Hopkins Univ and the Univ of Maryland have a COVID risk mortality estimation tool for UNVACCINATED individuals that calculates one’s mortality risk based on individual characteristics. https://covid19risktools.com:8443/ It’s based on accumulated data through last week. It’s not some garbage-in-garbage-out projection model based… Read more »
Bill, Yes, the data does indeed support not being afraid. But as a Christian, we can even have more confidence that He who knows when a sparrow falls, and numbers all the hairs on our heads, has also numbered all our days before ever there was one of them. We will not add a single moment to our span. Thanks for the link!
I’m confused why you incorporate imagined “unknown long term effects” of the vaccine into your decision, but then hand-wave away the already-demonstrated long-term effects of Covid.
Bill, I just now did your calculator and you failed to disclose that that’s just your absolute risk of dying from Covid within the next 3 weeks, not your risk of dying from Covid if you got sick. I made guesses on what your #’s were based on the information you gave, and if you get infected then your risk of dying from Covid is around 6 in 1000.
Jonathan, I’m curious where you’re going with all these comments of yours? Would you defend vaccine passports? Do you think the response to pandemics should be managed by people like Fauci or Whitmer as opposed to being managed by individuals with take-it-or-leave-it advise from people like Fauci? Or is there another way you’d like to see the response managed?
My #1 concern is that we at least make our decisions from some sort of shared truth and agreed-upon reality. God is the God of Truth, and any agenda built on lies is not in line with God’s purposes. The overwhelming amount of misinformation that has flooded this blog (especially in the last two years but not limited to them) has been very disconcerting to me. Covid-19 is a serious, deadly disease that has killed many hundreds of thousands of Americans. It is by far the worst plague that has hit us in our lifetime. The vaccines are substantially protective… Read more »
In terms of “vaccine passports” or mandates or anything, I think that is a complex question and depends substantially on context. Personally I wouldn’t support forcing the entire population to vaccinate (tho note that the Supreme Court decided states could do that with smallpox, so it’s already been deemed constitutional). I wouldn’t support forcing all unvaccinated to quarantine (tho note that Pastor Wilson himself suggested as much in 2015). But I think it is perfectly justifiable in certain situations for an employer or government agency to mandate that certain employees vaccinate due to their interaction with vulnerable persons or their… Read more »
PLEASE READ IN FULL:
“ Vaccines are a lifesaving gift from God. Getting a shot is a step of faith we should all be taking.”
https://calgaryherald.com/opinion/columnists/should-churches-require-vaccine-passports/wcm/75439a37-4f6e-4085-8e0a-5f30d7171c24
DO WHAT GOD WANTS AND GET THE JAB 🇺🇸🇮🇱🏳️⚧️🏳️🌈
Pastor Van Sloten is mistaken in encouraging others to get the jab for Jesus. He also believes that we should mask to help others. The very science he uses in getting to know God better is the science that tells us that you need an extremely fine filter full face mask to avoid contact with a virus. You can’t use quarter inch hardware cloth as a window screen to keep flies out of the kitchen. In the same manner, you can’t use the masks, bandanas and such available to the public to keep the SARS CoV-2 from infecting you. Nope,… Read more »
Gentle readers, please excuse sleepy Dave. He’s again pretending to be an expert on vaccines and masks. Poor thing, he believes he is an epidemiologist.
Okay Doug, where can we get one of these fake ID’s?
For this of in the military options become a bit more muddied. Fake IDs will not work under the current health care system and with the approval of the Pfizer vaccine the mandate is imminent.
I feel like this topic reminds me of two people in the scriptures. You have Rahab who lied to protect the spies, and she was justified in this. Then I think of Daniel, who instead of being afraid and going against God’s commands, he was bold and faithful and obedient to God’s commands. And for this God showed up for him in a mighty way. Personally, I pray the Lord will help me to follow the path of bravery and trust in the most high God, like Daniel. I pray I can trust God to show up in mighty and… Read more »
I think this comment might be the very best one I read.
“A Biblical Explanation of Faking Your Faith to Avoid the Lions Den” more like it. Stand Up and do What is RIGHT! GOD IS WATCHING! AMEN
This was his first of the seven points: “First, if you are in a position to resist openly, do that. Don’t go straight to the fake documentation. If at all possible, resist openly, in concert with any others in your same position. Sen. Rand Paul is exactly correct—however tyrannical they are in their hearts, they can’t arrest everybody. If massive numbers of people simply refuse to take the vaccine, there is nothing they can do. Better yet, for example, if thousands of nurses in a hospital system simply refuse to take the vaccine, there is nothing they can do. This kind… Read more »