So I need to say just a couple more things about the Southern Baptist resolution and the alt-right. In the interests of time, I will pay close attention to the interests of time.
An intelligent and non-screechy rejoinder to my piece can be found here, and I commend it to you all. The argument is basically that that Southern Baptists, given their history, do not have the “distance” to deal with everyone in a “blind justice” even-handed manner. They are not the judge, trying to be impartial, but rather an ex-con still making restitution.
This point does have some weight. The legacy of what we might call “old-school” racism is still within living memory. For the Southern Baptists to condemn the outrages of BLM might not look like even-handedness, but rather like an old bad habit creeping back.
But the leadership of the Southern Baptists is required by God, in m view, to jealously guard equity in the process. This is because they are not in a quiet room, carefully settling accounts, placing weights on scales with history books spread out before them. They are engaged in the hurly burly of leading millions of people, some of whom remember the bad old days, and many of whom have no experience with racial issues other than the ones we are having now. In other words, when you start to wobble on a bicycle, over-correcting in the other direction might be technically “just” (you might be yanking to the left only as far as you yanked to the right). But this is also the way you crash.
In Thomas Sowell’s magisterial book A Conflict of Visions, he points out the radical difference between those who want equality of outcome and those who want equality of process. The former hold to what he calls the unconstrained vision and the latter to the constrained vision. The former are trying to build a Utopia, and the latter are trying to avoid Illinois becoming Venezuela. Those who follow the unconstrained vision are great at two things—great soaring rhetoric, and crashing bicycles.
The point in my piece is that a manifest lack of even-handedness now is what enables extreme groups to recruit people you don’t want them recruiting. The alt-right is attractive to many young people, and it is attractive for a reason. What is that reason? Decades of political correctness in the leadership, that’s what—what Tim Bayly wonderfully tagged as simper reformannda.
I would like to write more on this, and hope I can get to it.
Another friend wrote to me about my piece, and raised this question.
“‘nice in idea in the abstract, but the power structure is still white-run and tilted in favor of whites generally (not toward any particular white individual, but toward the group), and therefore alt-right is more of an immediate problem than Nation of Islam or BLM.’ I don’t know that one would even need to adopt the postcolonialist definition of racism—‘prejudice PLUS power’—to be able make the argument given above’”
To this I would say that when power structures change naturally, slowly, and organically, there is still the potential for violence. When they are imposed with a heavy hand, the violent reaction is almost guaranteed. That is my argument about the rise of the alt-right. Where is this energy coming from? It is not coming from a faint memory of the old injustices—it is coming from a smarting experience with the new injustices. It is not the job of political and religious leaders to be ambitious about their abilities to tinker with “power structures.” When they undertake that kind of thing, they are getting in way over their heads. Their job is to be known as equitable, as men who will deal justly with the individuals who come in front of them, whatever the power structures might be doing.
Yeast works through the loaf slowly. When you pass laws about the appropriate yeast to dough ratios, you find yourself creating more troubles than you are solving.
As I say, there will no doubt have to be more on this.
When my plot to take over the earth finally bears fruit, I will declare a moratorium on talking about race for a few years. Violators will be given a drug that will dissolve all melanin out of their skin, making them permanently bleach-white, and they will wear Pajama Boy smocks bearing the word “privilege” with a big check mark superimposed over it. And I will make them introduce themselves everywhere by saying, “Hi, I’m Steve, and I was never a victim of ANYTHING.”
Bro. Steve wrote: When my plot to take over the earth finally bears fruit, I will declare a moratorium on talking about race for a few years. This is a plot that I could get behind. Well said. It reminded me of a polling trend shared on this blog recently (perhaps conducted by Christianity Today, not sure). Anyway, the question was asked, “One of the most effective ways to improve race relations is to stop talking about race.” In 2006, just over half of whites (51%) agreed with that statement, while about one in four blacks (24%) also agreed. That’s… Read more »
I agree. I think I have said this before, but I lived here through the riots in the aftermath of the Rodney King verdict. For a few months afterwards, race was an absolutely taboo topic among ordinary people in interracial groups. We were all very polite and kind to one another, and never mentioned it. It was a nice way to live.
Bro, how about this twist: In your all benevolent power, why don’t you endow all people of color with the privileges white people enjoy and take for granted, and endow white people with the vestiges of racism and all the attendant fears and burdens? Let’s see how those shoes fit.
Before you attempt to take over the world, it is imperative that you watch every episode of the “Pinky and the Brain” series to find out what hasn’t worked in the past. I have been told by my nearest and dearest that I make a very fine Pinky, the moronic one of the duo.
Brain: “Pinky, are you pondering what I’m pondering?”
Pinky: “I think so, Brain. But if we get Sam Spade, we’ll never have any puppies.”
The SBC sounds eerily famliriar to mark zuckerburgs Harvard speech. Beware nationalism… etc. They have given of white nationalism. It I showed next to impossible that the intellectuals in their ranks know this is often smear term. It is used to denegrate anyone who think biblically influenced western culture isn’t superior to the culture founded by a demonic war lord. Or the cultures who make crime and drug cartels a normal business. If you don’t view all that as someone else’s fault, and would like it to stay away, you are a racist nationalist. The abc knows how the media… Read more »
Sorry on a train in china and input is bad. Will fix later.
Reverend Wilson, Thanks for the balanced and sober words. They are helpful. The problem I see with the SBC’s actions is that they are explicitly taking the assumptions of the secular left. They seem to be willing to totally and publicly adopt the working worldview of secularism and they are using the language of Christ to promote incognito the language of the left. As someone who is not Southern Baptist, I suppose I don’t have a dog in this fight, but I am a Christian and the SBC is a God-honoring organization. Unfortunately, they are following the same path that… Read more »
“the idea that young whites have to feel guilty for their skin color is evil, and very unbiblical.”
I absolutely agree. I also haven’t heard anyone in Southern Baptist leadership claiming that they should. Can you direct me to what you refer to?
The whole premise of the SBC’s resolution and their refusal to name blm or other non-white yet obviously racist groups is that their forefathers were so bad that they have to continue to flog themselves, and they can’t say anything against the sins of black people. If you think the message is anything other than white bad, feel guilty, then you are burying your head in the sand. If I am a 20-something member of an SBC church who is friends with someone who is black and sympathetic to blm (which is an eminently reasonable and likely scenario), one of… Read more »
You sound more like a blind guide straining out gnats than a disciple of Jesus. Open your eyes!
You spend a lot of time telling me I am such a bad person without ever pointing to my sin. I promise you I will be quite open to repenting if you can point to something I have said that contravenes Scripture.
To claim that it’s all about White Guilt without any actual evidence, just “you have to know”, isn’t an argument. And calling BLM an “openly racist group” isn’t any more accurate than calling the Republican or Democratic parties “openly racist groups”. Why does your hypothetical BLM supporter even have to be Black? I know lots of non-Black people who are sympathetic to BLM, who aren’t the least bit racist nor are they insensitive to the racial animosity of others. The idea of “Black Supremacy” or any sort of separatist “Black Nationalism” is so fringe within the BLM movement and so… Read more »
“Now, have you seen anyone in these comment pages expressing sympathy with BLM? Did any of those people express animosity towards White people?” Kind of did Jonathan. Condemnation of white people is implicit, when it is not explicit, in BLM. Try making the point that all lives matter to a BLM crowd and see what happens. BLM isn’t about reconciliation, it isn’t even really about improving the lot of black people. It is more about venting rage, denying responsibility, and expressing misguided moral indignation. That said, it is perfectly legitimate for an overwhelmingly white majority denomination to disavow alt-right without… Read more »
There are a decent number of BLM supporters on my facebook feed, some of whose hearts I know quite well, and not a single one of them fails to be deeply, deeply aware that all lives matter. Much more so than the people who spout it off as a handy, useless slogan intended to ignore the suffering of those who actually suffer.
Since we can’t even know our own hearts (Jeremiah 17:9), it’s pretty amazing you can read the hearts and motives of others so well…
In other words, that’s a ridiculous throwaway comment that proves nothing but your confirmation bias.
Perhaps I’m misunderstanding this comment system, but are you actually replying to me, CHer? Two other people claimed to be able to know what was really on the hearts of other people they don’t even know, I respond with what I know of the hearts of my friends, and I’M the one who is criticized for being able to judge the hearts of others and having a confirmation bias? Please, seriously, tell me that comment is in reply to one of the two people who were negatively judging hearts of total strangers, and not to the person who was just… Read more »
I was responding to you. You claim to know the hearts of your preferred group as well as those “who spout it off as a handy, useless slogan” — as if you know exactly why they say it. Asinine comment.
CHer, your rebuke makes no sense. Someone else, someone who doesn’t even know the people in question, was judging their hearts negatively. I came in and said, well, in the cases that I know personally, that negative judgment doesn’t apply. How can your critique apply to my positive judgment of people I know, yet not to a negative judgment of people you don’t know? That is called “hypocrisy”. Also, since I have you captive for a moment, I want to note that in recent days you have had a tendency of attacking people, being shown to be factually wrong, and… Read more »
Also, so obvious that I shouldn’t have to say it, not a single one of them condemns White people. Not the White ones nor the non-White ones.
I don’t think the argument is that whites should feel guilty for the color of their skin. I think the argument is that whites should recognize that the color of their skin allows them to avoid things that happen to minorities, and makes it easier for them to get ahead. And it’s not an apples to apples comparison. I’m white, so if I get pulled over for speeding, I don’t have to wonder if I’ll also get shot before the encounter is over. I can take a walk through any neighborhood in the city without the neighbors assuming I must… Read more »
You open by stating that whites need not feel guilty for their skin color and then proceed to explain why they have a supposedly privileged existence compared to the pitiful black kids. But, don’t feel guilty that you have everything and blacks have nothing. By racializing everything as you have done here, you gloss over many crucial and necessary distinctions. Thousand of blacks get pulled over everyday who don’t get shot. Act like a sensible human being and you don’t get shot. Whites who act like fools when they get pulled over get shot. If I look like a thug,… Read more »
Actually, the alt right in general would agree with Krychek. The alt right would acknowledge that white privilege exists based on the idea that nations are defined by shared ancestry, not propositions or borders. America is a white nation, and therefore to be non-white brings significant disadvantages. If you’re a minority, you have to deal with the fact that this country was simply not built for you. It was built by whites, for whites, based on the ideals, values, preferences, and personalities of whites. To be white in such a country is a privilege that non-whites simply don’t get to… Read more »
Actually, the alt right in general would agree with Krychek. Krychek_2 is, I am fairly certain, a secular leftist. Adopting his assumptions about the world will land us in Soviet Union land. Even their beloved Sweden is committing cultural suicide, so adopting their assumptions about the world is a bad idea. While you may be jumping on the other side of the equation, secular assumptions are unsustainable. I don’t know if you are a believer or not, but if you are, I would ask what obligation you see white believers having toward non-white believers? Does our connection in Christ rise… Read more »
“I would ask what obligation you see white believers having toward non-white believers? Does our connection in Christ rise above our ethnic connections?” Of course our connection with Christ rises above our ethnic differences. For some reason, so many Christians believe the false dichotomy that if you embrace your ethnic identity, you must necessarily deny your identity in Christ. It’s somehow impossible to have both, at least if you’re white. Pertaining to my brothers of color, I have a responsibility to acknowledge and not minimize their suffering and to offer solutions if I believe I have them. So I do… Read more »
Ben Garner wrote: So I do acknowledge their pain, i.e. the pain related to living in a society in which you don’t quite belong, where your preferences are ignored and are not the norm, where your people are, in every conceivable measure of life outcome, doing relatively poorly. This is the language of someone who identifies “your people”, and society, primarily according to a criteria other than union with Christ. In his case, it appears to be Garner’s race. If a black person is a Christian, then “their pain” is our pain, and their society is our society, in the… Read more »
I don’t disagree that their society is ours in a Christian sense, but I was talking about secular society. Secular society marginalizes and hurts blacks more than whites. I said previously that I believe white privilege is real. But this isn’t because white people are evil and oppressive, but rather, simply because this is a white country, and blacks are not on average as well-suited for it. This used to be common sense. You say “their pain is our pain.” This may or may not be true depending on what you mean by that. We don’t know what it’s like… Read more »
Ben Garner wrote:
I can certainly agree with this. Secular society is quite an engine of racism and other class warfare. On the other hand, Christian faith unites across master-slave, white-black, rich-poor, male-female, nationality, etc. This is something that secularism can’t provide, because it can’t change the heart.
Of course our connection with Christ rises above our ethnic differences. This needs to happen in practice, and not merely acknowledged. For some reason, so many Christians believe the false dichotomy that if you embrace your ethnic identity, you must necessarily deny your identity in Christ. I am not one of those Christians. I have a responsibility to acknowledge and not minimize their suffering and to offer solutions if I believe I have them. Good, we agree then. I suppose I would just say that adopting the left’s assumptions is not speaking the truth. Black people need the gospel, just… Read more »
Can you explain to me why anybody wants to embrace their ethnic identity? Perhaps it is being Canadian by birth, but I find my ethnic identity one of the least interesting things about me. It would be like celebrating being tall or blonde or good at Sudoku. These are just facts over which we had no control and from which we should derive no pride as if we had chosen wisely in some kind of birth lottery.
Love of (and responsibility toward) family, tribe, country, etc, is not wrong in itself. It’s just that none of these others are our primary relationship. If any of those become primary, they will work to divide what shouldn’t be divided. When our primary identity is Christ, those other secondary identities and responsibilities can exist together without destroying proper unity. We are even called, in Scripture, to embrace certain responsibilities and duties with respect some of these secondary relationships, even though they may only be facts of birth, and not our choice. For example, we are told to honor our father… Read more »
I can see how that would hurt. Your son’s school experience may have been very different from my daughter’s, but hers made her aware very early on that she was privileged in a way that most other children weren’t. And I’m not talking about the advantage of coming from a literate home. I’m talking about the school system. White students make up 10% of LAUSD’s 750,000 enrollment. When we enrolled our daughter at her neighborhood school for kindergarten, she was the only white child in her class. We were advised immediately that our child did not belong in a neighborhood… Read more »
Thank you for sharing that Jillybean.
And, somehow, Jill Smith still supports socialist education?
The cynical side of me would say that probably most white parents in LAUSD realized they had won the educational sweepstakes. It gave intelligent white children the kind of academic education that parents could expect to pay top fees for at a private school. But my conscience was, in fact, always troubled which is why I tutored at a disadvantaged school. But LAUSD is hardly typical of most middle class school districts in suburban America. Because the vast majority of white middle class Angelenos shun the public schools, the school district does everything in its power to hang on to… Read more »
Thank you for that answer Jilly.
Jill Smith wrote: So, if these students should not be in government schools–or alternatively, there should be no government schools for them to attend–how would you address the crisis that would result on the day the doors closed? First, I feel the need to remind Jill that we’ve had this conversation before. As she should recall, I mentioned at the time that I do not advocate a radical disruption, but a move toward privatization and gradual dismantling of the government intrusion into education. Jill is not informing us of the Church’s inability to take up this burden tomorrow. We’ve known… Read more »
Ben, I would say two things to such people. First, that’s an archaic idea of nationhood that may have been useful at one time but no longer is. At one time, eating as much sugar as you could find was good thing because, if you were a hunter/gatherer, you didn’t know how soon you’d get more. Today, with obesity as our greatest health problem, it’s no longer advantageous to eat everything you can get your hands on. Likewise, racism probably served a purpose on the African savannah 100,000 years ago when there weren’t many humans and living in small, cohesive… Read more »
One slight quibble: make that 5000 years ago (after the tower of Babel). Everyone, including scientist, knows that the earth is ≈6000 years old. The rest of your comment: spot on.
Dude, there are man-made pottery shards that are 20,000 years old.
Dude, I know.
Another true believer.
“What makes you think that Blacks will indefinitely agree to meekly be treated as disadvantaged?”
Because they have no choice, and they never will. They will always be disadvantaged in a country that wasn’t built to suit them. Their IQ is 15 points below the national mean, and as our society becomes more technologically advanced (meaning that high IQ’s will become more and more valuable), they can really only expect to be left behind. And of course, if they try and fight an actual race war, well, I think you can probably guess how that would turn out.
Ben, try telling that to the people who live in what used to be called Rhodesia. Or South Africa.
Ben, are you aware that according to the Flynn effect, the IQ difference between people born in the 1990s and people born in the 1940s is as approximately as great as the IQ difference between White people and Black people?
So are you already telling those 1940s babies (which include a great deal of our political elite) that they are disadvantaged in a country that no long suits them and should be left behind?
It’s not just minorities who are being left out of the new economy. Most white people do not have the kind of IQ that would enable them to work in high tech.
Krychek_2 wrote: Likewise, racism probably served a purpose on the African savannah 100,000 years ago when there weren’t many humans and living in small, cohesive groups was the only way to survive. But times have changed, and racism is not just no longer advantageous; it now threatens to destroy the human species if not held in check. You heard it here first. In the evolutionary paradigm, racism probably serves a purpose, when the conditions call for it. The problem is that Krychek_2 provides no vantage point from which to tell whether anything serves the right purpose, because there is no… Read more »
Katecho, you’re very silly. Some things never change.
Whether we’re alt-right or liberal, anti-racist or racist, secular or Christian, right of him or left of him, the one thing everyone here can agree on is that he is extraordinarily silly.
That’s actually a horrible way to deal with crime, as has been proven in multiple situations in multiple countries. Treat a portion of the population as perpetual suspects, and criminal behavior will increase, not decrease. Law enforcement lose respect, community-police relations dissolve, arrest and imprisonment lose their stigma (because good people are getting arrested too, so it doesn’t mean anything bad anymore), more fathers are taken out of the community, etc. That’s been proven in White communities as well as Black communities – like when a militant response to Catholic uprising in Northern Ireland in the 1960s steadily escalated the… Read more »
First of all, if you think that the only black people who get hassled by the police are the ones acting like thugs, then you really need to get out more. Have you followed *any* of the recent trials of white police officers for shooting blacks? Whether or not you agree with the jury verdicts, in most of them the black male was reasonably well behaved, or at least not so badly behaved that a white guy doing the same thing would expect to be shot. Second, the economic reality is that whites have most of the money and power… Read more »
First of all, if you think that the only black people who get hassled by the police are the ones acting like thugs, then you really need to get out more. You are misquoting me. As you were accused of earlier, you moved the frame. I said those who act like thugs get shot, not harassed. Black people who do act civilized, don’t get shot, but they do get harassed. This is because of the high crime rate of black people, mostly in urban areas. This problem will only change when the crime rate balances the population. Orthodox Jews don’t… Read more »
That high crime rate is mostly due to the war on drugs — not drugs, but the war on drugs. End the war on drugs, treat it as a health problem instead of a criminal justice problem, and those crime rates will drop in no time. I know this because drugs didn’t used to be illegal; the percentage of addicts was about the same then as it is now but there was almost no drug-related crime. And yes, I am sorry for what happened to your son. I’ve been passed over too, sometimes for reasons I thought were unjust. But… Read more »
“Act like a sensible human being and you don’t get shot. Whites who act like fools when they get pulled over get shot. If I look like a thug, talk like a thug, and drive a thugged out car, don’t get mad when the cop thinks I am a thug. It doesn’t matter what color my skin is. ” Do you think Castile looked like a thug, talked like a thug, or was failing to act like a sensible human being? Was unarmed Rodney Mitchell acting like a thug when he was shot while reaching for the gearshaft during a… Read more »
As far as college goes, more White students benefit from variations of affirmative action (legacy admissions, regional preferences) than Black students. It is true that some scholarships overly look towards race. It is also true that White students, who are far more likely to have college-educated parents, far more likely to have college-graduate social connections, far more likely to have test prep, and far more likely to go to college prep schools, are far more likely to get better scores. That’s even before we start talking stereotype effect and other measured reasons for score discrepancy. While I’m not in favor… Read more »
Are you a black man?
Doug, nothing on the “unintentional racism” clause?
“The alt-right is attractive to many young people, and it is attractive for a reason. What is that reason? Decades of political correctness in the leadership, that’s what..” I’m going to totally disagree. “Alt right” is a broad brush, but the more hateful aspects that the SBC was denouncing are the results of plain old sin, envy, pride, malice, fear. It’s as old as time. “It’s attractive” is not an excuse for anything. Porn is attractive. So is feminism. Opiate addiction. Shiny objects on the ground. Punching people in the head…. Wrong is wrong. Evil is evil. Thankfully the SBC… Read more »
MeMe, is it sinful to promote the killing of cops? Is it sinful to destroy businesses in your own neighborhoods that have done nothing but try and provide a service for that neighborhood. Is it sinful to want financial restitution for sins that are 150 years old and didn’t happen to you at all? If those are sins then they should be included in your line in the sand.
Of course it is sinful to promote killing cops. However, the fact that there are some broken people in the world advocating sinful things, does not relieve us of our own responsibility to step forth and lead. You don’t draw that line in the sand by becoming a hater yourself, especially not if you are going claim Christ’s name. If Christians like the SBC don’t stand up for what’s right, than no one will.
MeMe & Jonathan You both have either misunderstood my point or you are just choosing to ignore it. Pointing out the inconsistency of the SBC’s statement is not becoming “a hater” as MeMe states, nor is it a declaration that the SBC is guilty of the issues that I put forth regarding BLM behaviors. The point is —- the SBC’s statement is completely immersed in political correctness and like the frog in the beaker story, it seems to indicate that the SBC is being far more impacted by our culture than it is aware of, which is always a dangerous… Read more »
Yes, it sinful to promote the killing of cops. Yes, it is sinful to destroy businesses in your own neighborhood. Can you point me to the people associated with the SBC who have advocated for either of those things?
MeMe & Jonathan You both have either misunderstood my point or you are just choosing to ignore it. Pointing out the inconsistency of the SBC’s statement is not becoming “a hater” as MeMe states, nor is it a declaration that the SBC is guilty of the issues that I put forth regarding BLM behaviors. The point is —- the SBC’s statement is completely immersed in political correctness and like the frog in the beaker story, it seems to indicate that the SBC is being far more impacted by our culture than it is aware of, which is always a dangerous… Read more »
“the SBC’s statement is completely immersed in political correctness..”
Actually, it’s completely immersed in Christian values. Declaring black folks to be the enemy, nourishing hatred and strife, although politically incorrect things, are also immoral, not biblical, and a poor reflection on the Body of Christ as a whole.
There is no truth in blindly denouncing a group who is putting their reputations, even their lives on the line, just to be the only voice capable of making a real stand for your very same culture.
How are you defining culture in this instance? I live in a multi-ethnic, multi-faith, polyglot neighborhood in Los Angeles where I manage to live peaceably with the people around me while devoting myself, rather passionately, to the glories of western culture. Who is interfering with my ability to do this? Who is preventing me from practicing my religion, hanging out at museums, and studying whatever historic period attracts my dilettantish attention? Why do I need to be surrounded by white people to enjoy the best of western European civilization?
I don’t know enough about your exact situation to be able to give an answer to you. But there is a lot of unhappiness in this country due to “diversity” and it’s not all just the white man’s fault.
I wonder if things worked better when multi-culturalism and multi-racialism was pretty much confined to the cities. I do understand the difficulties when an alien culture is suddenly imposed on a small town. I read a book a couple of years ago about a group of ultra-orthodox Jews who were brought into a rural setting to work in some sort of food production plant, and there were real culture clashes. I can certainly see how that would be the case. I think people like me want to live in large cities because we like a multicultural environment. I like it… Read more »
“But I can see there are people who would find that experience horrible..” Why though, Jill? I can understand not everyone is going to seek out diversity for it’s own sake, and I see no reason why everyone should. I also don’t deny non-assimilation can be a problem….but only when it actually causes a problem. But why would cultural or ethnic diversity categorically be not merely not a preference, but outright “horrible” for some people? What is wrong with those people that they are so very bothered by it? Maybe you should be judgmental when you observe butt-headed hostility toward… Read more »
I wasn’t thinking about the kind of people who find it horrible because they don’t like people of other races and nations. I was thinking of people like my dear mother who was driven to distraction by her first (and last) trip to the downtown LA garment and produce districts. First, there is the noise level of people trying to make themselves heard in 20 languages all at the same time. Add in mariachi bands on corners, and Armenian threnodies being pumped through outdoor speakers. Don’t forget the constant thwacka-thwacka of LAPD choppers overhead because it is adjacent to a… Read more »
Some parts of that sound cool. Not the human congestion part, though I’d still feel that way if they were all middle class white Americans.
I think that was my original point. The qualities that enable you to enjoy life in a very crowded city are the same qualities that make you able to tolerate a multicultural environment. I think that it might be harder if everyone were a middle class white American because nobody would be making allowances for cultural differences! And you would be better equipped to understand when the neighbors were trash talking you! Today it was 104 degrees here. This is the one thing that can make me pine for the cool forests of my native land. On the other hand,… Read more »
The same SBC that promotes feminist marriages is taking a stand against feminism?
The SBC is moving closer and closer to Satan
Satan is happy when women let those dishes pile up in the sink.
if a woman cannot even wash dishes as part of looking after a home or supporting her husband
The husband can’t really expect much more from her let alone, teaching kids Godly instruction , not being an alcoholic etc
Hilarious how laziness is now feminism/equality
Yes Satan loves strife and loves lazy unsupportive women
One other point is that Stetzer made the blanket statement that Christians everywhere should condemn the alt-right by name. In other words, to him, SBC history and alt-right infiltration are immaterial to the need for this particular group to be called out and no others.
https://twitter.com/edstetzer/status/874808841854009344
It’s kind of ironic to me, I’ve been speaking about the alt right here in Pastor Wilson’s comments for over a year now. Everyone knows who I’m speaking of, and yet nearly everyone says, “I’m not a part of the alt right, I don’t read those sites.” Kilgore says it again in a comment above, “I am not Alt-Right…” Do you ever wonder why so many people right here and now always feel a need to denounce, deny, avoid any perceived affiliation with the Alt Right? So clearly something is going on within the Alt Right that makes makes many… Read more »
I’ve been reading the ideas and communicating with the people who became the AltRight since 2008. I’m happy to form political alliances against those who would destroy me and I won’t renounce any allies to gain a pat on the head from my enemies.
“For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?”
The very fact that in a discussion about the SBC denouncing some alt right racism you would speak of “enemies” reveals a racially hostile heart rooted in fear. In Jesus Christ we need to realize who the enemy is. He is NOT any of us. He is not black people.
Of course it’s not black people.
it’s Jews.
Ain’t I a stinker.
Stinker was not the word that came to mind. Foolish was.
I think he’s talking about virtue signaling to leftists, many of whom would like to see Christians literally put in jail for their beliefs.
I know quite a few lefties, and none of them have expressed a desire to put Christians in prison. They can get a bit testy when some Christians on the fringes want to put gays in jail. They get a bit alarmed by any talk of a theocracy which would make them go to church on Sundays. But I haven’t heard any talk about jail.
As a man, the responsibility to protect society and its women falls on me (I’m a complementarian like Doug). I believe God gave men a higher ability to perceive threats, a greater understanding of evil people, how they think and what drives them. You should trust me on this. They want to fine and imprison Christians who don’t want to bake cakes for gay weddings, perceiving such discrimination as a violation of basic human rights. We are to them nothing less than existential adversaries. It is true that they aren’t currently calling for rounding up Christians and throwing them in… Read more »
“I believe God gave men a higher ability to perceive threats, a greater understanding of evil people, how they think and what drives them.”
Well that’s a tragic mistake to make. God actually gave men and women two different sets of eyes, hence our complementary nature. Common sense should also lead you to conclude that women’s very survival has often depended on our ability to, “understand people and what drives them.” Little girls begin studying relationships pretty much from day one.
Well, it’s true that I am a trusting soul. But it’s hard for me to imagine the circumstances under which any of this might happen. Did you know that around 100,000 gay people have got married since Obergefell, and yet there have not been more than a dozen cases of state action and lawsuits against wedding vendors. Either gays are not out there looking for trouble, or there are not many florists and cake bakers who are having conscientious objections. I guess what I am trying to say is that society seems to have accommodated itself to the new normal,… Read more »
Jill Smith wrote:
Jill seems to be assuming that God has nothing to say about whether a culture enjoys peace or judgment. I’m sure the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah had accommodated themselves to their homosexual norm as well. They still got leveled.
Do they get testy at the religion whose non-fringes throw “gays” off of buildings?
I guess you’ve never been mobbed by a bunch of men accusing you of Islamaphobia? Men can be quite good at teh stoopid.
Absolutely! It’s an odd thing but they seem to be much more likely to want to send the military over to straighten things out than many other people I know. Are there left-leaning neocons with a burning desire to make the rest of the world adopt our views on civil rights?
MeMe, I only have a vague idea who you mean by “alt-right” (nor do I wish you to clarify). Since the “alt-right” has no official organization or membership rolls, it is difficult to say who is “alt-right” because there are no official statements or representatives. Of course, that allows bogus claims to be made, and it also means that your definition of “alt-right” is not official but an opinion that would likely be disputed by others. I find it amusing that you use Kilgore as an example of “I am not Alt-Right” when he also says he is “not Southern… Read more »
“Since the “alt-right” has no official organization or membership rolls, it is difficult to say who is “alt-right” because there are no official statements or representatives.”
Well, since people like Richard Spencer declare themselves to be Alt right, white supramacists, and actually email and tweet their hatred directly to the SBC, we can safely conclude that the SBC knows precisely who and what they were denouncing.
As always you paint with a broad brush, so as to make things unrecognizable. Name names. Who are you accusing of sinful hatred? To cherry pick from some of your accusations: there is no evidence that Vox Day, for example, hates black people.
VD not only hates black people, he openly states that hatred is a Christian virtue. When you are speaking of shipping people back to Africa and telling people how to deal violently with gangs of vibrants, you are engaging in racism, not the unintentional kind,not the microaggressive kind, the flat out deliberate, rooted in fear, hatred, and ignorance kind.
No. He has never proposed “shipping people back to Africa”. To quote from a recent post ( http://voxday.blogspot.com/2017/04/mailvox-but-what-about-fill-in-blanks.html ) — “Some communities would prefer to be entirely homogenous. Others would value diversity. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with either preference…. how can blacks NOT support the Alt-Right cause when Mexicans are displacing them from historically black communities in the United States and the Chinese are beginning to move into Africa in increasing numbers?” Is this the attitude of someone who hates American blacks? I don’t see how. Deal with your own ignorance, fear, and hatred before looking for it… Read more »
He says it all the time.
“Supreme Dark Lord @voxday
Wish them well on their return to Africa.”
With your customary attention to detail and care for truth, you overlooked the fact that the people he is directing this at are an African man and his wife.Race was not mentioned.
From Day himself: The evidence is very clear that a black population in excess of an as-yet-undetermined percentage of the overall population renders the continuation of Western civilization impossible. This has been observed everywhere from Capetown to Detroit, and the comparison with Hiroshima only underlines the cultural, economic, and physical devastation that an excessively black population is likely to wreak on a society. When he was criticized for calling black writer NK Jemisin a “half-savage,” he defended himself by saying: ” Jemisin has it wrong; it is not that I, and others, do not view her as human, (although genetic… Read more »
You, like many others, have got it exactly backwards. The “genetic science” he references has claimed that European, Asian, etc populations all have admixture of Neanderthal and Denisovan genes. ( https://infogalactic.com/info/Archaic_human_admixture_with_modern_humans ) On the other hand, sub-Saharan African populations are 100% Homo sapiens sapiens.
So, if anything, this would be a claim that non-Black African populations are not fully human.
That’s literally the best defense you could make of him from that statement? Puling out that little rhetorical piece and ignoring that 90% of the statement was insanely demeaning?
Does it matter if it’s demeaning, if it’s true?
No, it’s not remotely true. NK Jemisin is not a “half-savage” or “incapable of civilization, and nothing he says about her supports that argument in the slightest. She was a counseling psychologist, born and raised in America, who in a very brief time, she has quickly become a more highly respected SF/F author than he ever was. She complained about his racism, and he responded by taunting her skin color. That’s about the level at which he knows how to operate.
I am not affiliated with many groups. I don’t know the ideas of the Alt-Right very well, so for me to affiliate with them would be silly. That doesn’t mean anything about what I think of their ideas.
It just means that I don’t go to their sites and read their articles very often. Don’t look too much into my non-affiliation.
Sorry, I was using you to make a point. If one is unfamiliar with the alt right, then why would one disagree with what the SBC decided? The alt right looks a whole lot different if you are a SB whom they have decided to target with their hatred.
If you read my comments on this post and the last, I think I have been clear.
This is virtue signalling to secular leftist.
This is not virtue signaling to secular leftists. This is responding with the heart of Christ to the complaints of persecution and outright abuse brought up by their own members.
When the response only goes in one direction, and just so happens to exactly coincide with the ideology of the left, I am skeptical. Sounds more like an attempt to placate loud leftists rather than responding with the heart of Christ.
If this was “responding with the heart of Christ”, why wasn’t the first Resolution passed, and why was the subsequent Resolution hurriedly created and pushed to the Convention for approval? Did the representatives have a miraculous change of heart overnight? It was virtue signaling to anyone who cares to recognize the truth. Oh, I have no doubt the voters believed they were showing the heart of Christ. But there was absolutely no reason for the Resolution to name only one group (the “alt-right”) as an example of racism, other than to placate a subset of the SBC membership. I suppose… Read more »
MeMe said: Do you ever wonder why so many people right here and now always feel a need to denounce, deny, avoid any perceived affiliation with the Alt Right? I’m not sure why there seem to be few outspoken alt-righters, but I think the fact that it’s ill-defined and used by the left to conflate white supremacy with general conservative principles would be good enough reasons. But it is a good thing that so many people denounce the alt-right. I can’t say I’ve seen too many leftists denounce BLM. “I’m not BLM, but …” followed by a nuanced response would… Read more »
“General conservative principles” have conserved nothing. Look at America and tell me what you see. Conservatives are pharisees who refuse help from people who could actually end abortion, who could win back our rights from the Federal Government, because they want to feel good about their “principles.” Your “conservative principles” were given to you by the left, designed to make you controlled opposition. Buckley kowtowed at every turn and became a pawn of forces far more diabolical than any conservative at the time could imagine. This is a fight for the survival of our civilization. Please look at America again,… Read more »
pepe wrote: Your “conservative principles” were given to you by the left, designed to make you controlled opposition. We heard such claims before from folks like ashv, but he wasn’t able to articulate anything of substance as an alternative. Here is a list of “conservative principles” from a conservative organization. I’m sure several of those items could use serious qualification, but if pepe doesn’t reject all of them, then why say that they are given to us by the left? If pepe disagrees with all of them, then he needs to work through them and explain why. We may find… Read more »
Thank you for wanting a civil discussion. I agree with most of the points on the list: however, ask yourself how do we get from here to there? That’s the harder part. Nobody can actually get everything on that list fulfilled, without being branded an “extremist.” Say you want to prohibit abortion. It’s now outside of mainstream “conservative” thought to even consider the idea of actually punishing people for having abortions, even Pastor Wilson has spoken against that. It’s also outside of mainstream political thought to consider nullification or secession against the insanity of Roe v. Wade. But how else… Read more »
pepe wrote: Conservative principles have failed because they do not address the methods that the global elite uses to maintain control. I agree that conservatives have been foolish and late in realizing the extent of the influence of things like mass media, Hollywood, and government secular education. However, this is not a failure of the conservative principles themselves. It may reflect a lack of wisdom, or failure to get those principles implemented, but the principles themselves remain generally commendable. I actually don’t put much hope in getting conservative principles enacted in any lasting way apart from a serious revival, and… Read more »
Intimidation from the left. Everyone lives in fear of losing their jobs and being targeted on bogus charges by the government for Alt-Right affiliation. After a while, they internalize the fear and start to justify it by persuading themselves that it’s okay, they’re not “real” Alt-Right. We all lie to ourselves rather than look at the true evil in the world, the gaping, godless cesspit that is secularized society.
It seems to me the SBC is responding to the Wikipedia definition of the Alt-Right versus the 10+ points that someone posted for us the other day. Since the definitions vary so much, I can see why it’s easy to disagree about the SBC resolution, or what exactly it’s addressing. I can honestly say I’d never concerned myself with the “balanced scales” verses of the Bible until reading Pastor Wilson’s references to them. And then, all the sudden my church started teaching through Proverbs. I certainly fit the description of the Fool, because there’s a lot of wisdom in there… Read more »
Testing. 1.2.3. Sibilant. Sibilant. Trollbait.
Test
alt-right is more of an immediate problem than Nation of Islam or BLM
Perhaps, but they could have just added black-supremacy alongside white-supremacy without specifying actualities.
And the assumption is that the alt-Right is more of a problem than the Social Justice Warriors but I am not so certain. Their theology is often skew and their methods unbiblical. So to give in to their demands that the alt-Right be condemned is a bit like agreeing with the church gossip that Uncle Fred needs to be sharply rebuked for continuing to fart in public.
I feel bad for the Reverend Al Sharpton who was born 30 years too soon to be taken seriously.
Being Alt-Right is not sinful. Only a cultural marxist would assume such a thing.
Why don’t you give the Alt-Right’s side of things a fair hearing, if you do the same for this other commentator?
Do you dissociate yourself from the “manosphere” section of the Alt-Right? Specifically, do you think that picking up women for sex outside marriage is sinful?
Do you think it is sinful for a Christian to support the neo-Nazi Daily Stormer and The Right Stuff, both of which claim to be part of the Alt-Right and have links on many Alt-Right websites? Both sites refer to Jews as kikes, while The Right Stuff invented the practice of putting three parentheses around names of people they believe to be Jewish.
At this stage, the important question is not “Do we agree?” but “Are you on my side?”
‘Do you dissociate yourself from the “manosphere” section of the Alt-Right? Specifically, do you think that picking up women for sex outside marriage is sinful?’ Obviously you have determined your definition of “manosphere”, but, just like “Alt-Right”, I think it covers a broad range. For example, I think that some in the “manosphere” would consider “sex outside marriage” to be sinful, and their “manosphere” focus consists of interest in men’s rights, self-improvement (both mental and physical), business skills, and self-sufficiency. In some cases, they are interested in being a MGTOW (man going their own way) because they believe marriage is… Read more »
This is the classic political correctness “gotcha” moment that the media uses to prevent functional right wing ideas from actually being expressed. I’m not taking the bait. You aren’t arguing, you are attempting a witch hunt and I’ll have none of it.
I’m not actually. This is something I really wonder about. There are functional right wing ideas that I can listen to with an open mind and occasional agreement. Such as the need to not to spend too much more than we take in, and the need to do something to control immigration. I had never heard of the alt-right until sometime last year when someone who posts here started mentioning it. I wandered on over, and while some of the stuff seemed reasonable enough, I was deeply shocked by two things: the contemptuous attitude toward women as expressed by the… Read more »
1) MGTOWs have contempt for women because of the damage feminism has done to society. PUAs are sleazy but can be helpful for young men to understand the female mindset a little, I have always taken them with a grain of salt. 2) There is no way to even discuss Christian/Jewish relations without either pretending Jews are more holy and moral than Christians(which is heresy) or getting compared to Hitler and crashing the argument. That is the extreme stranglehold that political correctness holds on this question, which in turn means that if the Jews were actually as bad as Hitler… Read more »
Thank you for explaining!
I’m still wondering how the SBC’s flagship seminary can have a Broadus Chapel and Boyce College, especially after this. You can actually have owned slaves and been Confederates and still be worthy of Christian admiration and memorialization, but if you retweet Richard Spencer (or think that he shouldn’t be sucker-punched in the street) then you’re outta here YOU RACIST!!!!! I hope the pastor who created the resolution shifts his aim to these lingering examples of racism in the SBC, in the spirit of consistency and thoroughness, and all those who donate to SBTS and are fond of those old racists… Read more »
Joe, how about if we get the goodies given to the illegals and all the supposed underclass folks bere in the good old US of A.
No requirement for automobile insurance, free health care, free phones with all the fixings, free housing or no interest house loans that we can default on without being evicted, free food, get paid for having kids and so on.
Wby all those goodies barely scratch the surface of what our underprivileged folks get and the compilation makes white privilege look pretty small.
Why is it that no matter what the right wing does, it is always a justified reaction to some provocations? Even handedness would require that it be recognized that the right wing is made up of actual people with agendas, just like the left wing.
The left wing controls the narrative. The right wing has to respond or it loses automatically.
I think understandable reactions and justified reactions are different things.