Over time Nebuchadnezzar drifted into a belief in Babylonian exceptionalism. “The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?” (Dan. 4:30). Because of his hubris, because of his conceit, he was struck with madness. The God of heaven determined to show that a man thinking that he had actually built his own empire was equivalent to him thinking that he was a moo cow. 
And Nebuchadnezzar remained in that state until he returned to sanity. And what did that return to sanity look like? It looked like this:
“And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation: And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?” (Dan. 4:34–35).
The king’s insanity consisted of not taking God (as God) into account, and his return to sanity consisted of acknowledging that the God of the system was outside the system.
If there is no God outside the system, then the system is god. And that means there is no external point of reference by which the activities of the system may be evaluated. But using your only yardstick to measure your yardstick is simply stupid. “For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise” (2 Cor. 10:12).
This kind of folly is how Nebuchadnezzar came to embrace the bovine right of kings. This is how Caligula planned to make his horse a consul. And this is exactly the same kind of thing that Obama is doing with the transgender insanity. The Justice Department has determined that a small child with a wee wee has the authority to determine in his heart that he really ought not to have one, and thus must be allowed to use the other restroom. And the full fury of our august nation will descend upon your head and shoulders if you give way to the temptation to snicker.
But there is a logic to it. If you are the supreme leader of the strongest nation the world has ever known, and there is no voice from outside the system to check your folly, then it follows that there is no such thing as folly.
“For my people is foolish, they have not known me; They are sottish children, and they have none understanding: They are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge” (Jer. 4:22).
In the early years of secularism, because of inherited Christian capital, things could run pretty well. But this is like saying that for the first three days of partying the prodigal son still had money. After secularism has had its full opportunity to work out the logic of its own premises, to rule on the basis of its own insane wisdom, you may glance around at the consequences. What a JOKE. So it was prescient for the secularists to devise a system of polity in which all decisions are vindicated in their very own self-referential ways, where we measure our yardstick with our own yardstick, such that there is no such thing as a JOKE. Otherwise we’d all look pretty stupid right now.
In Scripture, death is separation. Physical death is separation of the spirit from the body. Spiritual death is separation from God. That which is dead is divided. Death is therefore not a state of being inert. Death is actually separation. We were all dead in our trespasses and sins, Paul says, in which we used to walk. We used to walk around in a condition of separation from God. We did not walk around in a condition of not being able to walk around.
I say this in order to define life. If we want to talk about “all of Christ for all of life,” and it is only fair to define terms. Jesus said that He came so that we might have life, and have it more abundantly. But what is this abundant life? Is it merely some kind of spiritual joy juice, some kind of celestial circus water? Doing whatever you were doing before, but just a little bit more cheerfully?
If death is separation and division, then life is union, integration, restoration. In Col. 1:18, Paul says that Christ is the arche of all things, the one in whom all things hold together. But in order to hold all things together like this, Christ must be at the right hand of the Father. He must be the one who created the cosmos, which means that we must insist on a Creator/creation divide. Meaning for the creation can only come from outside the creation. If meaning arises from within the system, then whatever arises must be received by us as though it were meaningful, and we must do so with solemn faces.
The integration of all things that is so necessary can only be accomplished by Christ, and this Christ must be the uncreated God, the Second Person of the Godhead. Deny this and everything turns stupid.
Now we live in a world that is fragmented by sin. It has always been fragmented de facto, but one of the things that is unique about our time is that we have begun insisting on normalizing this fragmented condition. We are now insisting on fragmentation de jure. It is one thing to live in a broken world that you know is broken (because there is an unbroken standard outside the world). But it is quite another to live in a broken world that everyone claims is whole, perfect, just right. So the decree has now gone forth — Bedlam rhymes with Bethlehem, and will serve just as well.
And if you say no, no, the world in fact is broken, the thought police — actually, we don’t have thought police anymore, but something more like militarized thought SWAT teams — descend upon you and your hateful ways.
Remember that death is separation, and note that there are three forms of death that our crazed and febrile world insists we cling to. In what follows, I am using certain figures in philosophy as representatives and/or place-holders, and not trying to review the history of intellectual thought as though it were an exercise in billiard ball physics. Still, take note.
Going back to Kant, we have wanted to insist on a profound separation between the Creator and the creation. This is not epistemic humility — it is spiritual death. Going back to Hume, we have been separated from the world around us. We do not trust our knowledge of the world anymore at all. We needed to have followed Thomas Reid instead. Going back to Sartre, we have been separated from the authority of right reason. In short, we lost God, we lost the world, and now, right on schedule, we have lost our minds.
Another way of saying this is that we have lost our way.
“My people hath been lost sheep: Their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: They have gone from mountain to hill, They have forgotten their restingplace” (Jer. 50:6).
When Christian thinkers try to appeal to this world gone mad, urging them to remember the honored tradition of religious liberty, they need to realize that it was the honored Christian tradition of religious liberty. But now, locked up in the asylum as we are, with no outside reference point tolerated, there is no reason for anyone to remember any of that. Who is worse off? The madman who sticks with his madness, or the reasonable guy who expects the madman to act as though he were not mad?
And so this is why the only thing the Church should be doing right now is declaring, announcing, and preaching the saving lordship of Jesus Christ. Do you want salvation? You will need a Savior for that. But mark it well. I do not mean “gospel-centeredness” as a means of evacuating a crazy world. I mean real gospel-centeredness, the kind that restores worlds, and builds civilizations.
Our generation is in the midst of lunatic convulsions. Whenever the fit seizes us, we are thrown into the fire, into the water. Nothing whatever can be done. The disciples could not cast out that particular demon, Jesus said, because of their unbelief. It is the same now.
Consider the sentiments from this translation of the first verse of Psalm 68, a Huguenot battle hymn. Compare it to the kinds of things we sing in our huddled conclaves.
Let God but rise and show his face,
And in a moment from the place
Our foes are disappearing.
Their camp dispersed, bereft their pride,
Astonished, pressed on every side,
They flee at his appearing.
We shall behold their scattered tents
Fade like a vapor dark and dense,
Their nothingness remaining:
As melts the wax in fervent heat,
So melt the wicked when they meet
Our God, their strength consuming.
It’s our fault.
Baptists won’t tell their kids who they are until they figure it out for themselves. And Presbyterians treat their kids like a subspecies until they can prove that they’re not.
Meanwhile, the kids are in public school being catechized by Darwin the cross-dressing ape.
The vacuum created by our fear that our kids are imperfect covenant members has Hoover Elementary-ed our kids away. Give them a name. Feed them like family. This is all our fault.
Do you have a tune for that Psalm? Or a meter, so that we could pick a tune for it?
It’s 8.8.7.8.8.7., for what it’s worth.
Actually, the Cantus Christi has maybe one tune in 8 8 7 . 8 8 7. 8 8 7. 8 8 7. that would work.
Thanks. I can probably look in the meter index in the back of a hymnal and find tunes that may work.
There are almost a dozen tunes in 8.8.7D here:
http://www.hymntime.com/tch/mid/met/887%20D.htm
and one in 8.8.7:
http://www.hymntime.com/tch/mid/met/887.htm
We have the same tune (same meter anyway) as Psalm 68 in our hymnal/Psalter–it’s called “Que Dieu se montre seulement.”
It was a big hit back in the 1540’s.
Doug, have you confronted the police in your church about the fact that they play a necessary role in the perpetuation of this insanity? Have you put them under Matthew 18 church discipline in the same way you would a man who beats his wife? Because chicken-necks like Obama can only get away with this stuff because of those very police who are on stand-by. You see what I’m saying? You, MacArthur, Piper, Mohler, and all the other Evangelical Intelligentsia have a duty to set a proper example and move the dial in such a way that the idea of… Read more »
For that, he would have to determine if they have played a part in the insanity.
To the best of my knowledge, Moscow is still mostly at the “appeals to fairness” stage of the insanity (since people around here actually take action against the attempts at ginning up a mob), not the “infliction of jackboots” stage.
Sting goes to Christ Church?
Who knew? ????
I accidentally read Jer 4:22 as saying “They are Scottish children” and I was very confused.
Dear Mr. Wilson, Sometimes I wonder if you aren’t barking up the wrong tree. The Huguenot battle hymn seems startlingly inapt. Whom are you fighting? Your fellow citizens? You say that you declare the Lordship of our Lord. Very good. Then why do you not do what He says? Have you run out of poor and exploited people that you find time to dream presumptuous dreams? The Devil has baited his trap and it appears you have taken the bait. He has enticed you with dreams of power into fighting on ground of his choosing, with weapons he has mastered.… Read more »
What specifically do you think he is doing wrong? It’s easy to catch someone out if your accusation is vague enough.
Hi!
You are right. Let me be more specific. Mr. Wilson has mistaken the victims of the Devil for the Devil himself.
He should be fighting the Prime Adversary. Instead he wastes his efforts fighting the pawns. In a way that actually pleases the Devil.
At some point incompetence becomes indistinguishable from malice.
What pleases the devil is when those who desperately need the the saving grace of Jesus Christ (which includes all of us), reject it as an over-reaching, politically incorrect affront to their victimhood status.
Dear Mr. Tom,
I am sure that is not true. The Gospel and the Person of Jesus Christ command respect even in the parts of the world most hostile to Christians. There is really nothing so disarming as the sincere statement of the fact: “God loves you.”
But it must be sincere. That can only happen within a relationship.
The Gospel by definition is sincere.
It’s those self appointed arbiters of sincerity we have to watch out for.
Dear Mr. Tom,
If you know you are sincere, it will shine through. The Lord will see to it. But there are no short cuts to persuasion.
Please, call me Tom
Can you explain how in claiming to know how long it takes the Lord to see to the sincerity of his servants shining through and persuading nonbelievers, you aren’t acting as a self appointed arbiter?
Dear Tom,
No. Just reporting His power. And I did not specify a schedule. The Lord is sovereign.
Anyway, if you want to know more about these things you have only to read the Bible and sage Christian writers. For example the Lord’s promise to supply words for defence before tribunals.
Furthermore, I have decided to not comment on this group anymore. I have said my piece. You are not my responsibility. I have the heartiest sympathies for whichever evangelist is tasked with your (plural) case. The Lord give them strength.
The Gospel of Jesus Christ is full of grace and truth. Don’t judge yourself by how sincere you believe what you believe. You may became the enemy of the Gospel when you fail to convey those truths clearly. When did Christians started to believe that when people sin, they are doing it out of ignorance? It can happen, but most of the time they know full well, and they choose to do it anyway. When people become proud of their sin, how will your sincere “God loves you” help them?
Dear Ms. Simon, Your point is well taken. Let us not be too wise in our own eyes. People do sin deliberately. But what should the Christian response to sin? Our Lord was deliberately crucified. Stephen was deliberately stoned. What was their response? What was the response of Gladys Staines to the people who burned her husband and sons alive? What was the response of those Amish towards the mother of the man who killed their children? Their response was to pray for those who hurt them. Be gentle with sinners. Do not harden your heart against them. Pray for… Read more »
Do you remember Stephen’s words before they picked up the stones and killed him?
His words were “I see Heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”
Before he died he said “Lord Jesus receive my spirit.”
His last words were “Lord do not hold this sin against them”.
Here was one who had conquered!
I appreciate your words. I’ve been trying to put my finger on that very thing, but it can be a hard to explain. Somewhat amusing, but I often blog under Insanitybytes because the whole world has indeed gone mad. However, in following Christ I am aware we are to reach out and heal the inmates, not burn down the whole asylum. Those “militarized thought SWAT teams” also happen to come in a very Christian, very right wing flavor. If I can not even tell the good guys from the bad guys or the sane from the insane, then we have… Read more »
You are right enough that we ought not to lose sight of the real enemy. At the same time, the practice of the apostles and prophets clearly includes opposing not just Satan but his ministers: witness the way Paul talks about his adversaries among the Jews, or the way that Jesus addresses the Pharisees. Read any two pages in a row from Jeremiah and get back to me. If we are to speak biblically, then we must be able to follow the whole Bible when appropriate, and sometimes, it appears, that includes telling sinners in so many words that they… Read more »
Dear Mr. Uberti,
If Mr. Wilson’s intentions are above reproach (as I think they are), his execution leaves much to be desired.
Could you just state your accusation in so many words? Like, what actual thing that Wilson has done do you find fault with? Are you saying he doesn’t pray enough? Doesn’t give enough to charity? Writes too much about politics? (And how on earth would you know, anyway?) These constant insinuations are unbecoming.
Dear Mr. Uberti,
Please go back and read what I have written. I think I have made my point plainly. If you want any clarifications, I am at your service.
You’re wasting your breath. With Dalvi, you’ll only get vague, squishy, amoebic, evasive maneuvering designed to avoid being pinned down with any actual stances on anything. He has proven–especially in this forum–to be about as genuine as a glass eye.
But I guarantee you he’ll chime in with the last worthless word.
Dear Mr. Malachi,
Please allow me to fulfil your prophecy. God bless you and yours.
Your advice tends to suggest that you think Doug Wilson is not doing anything (or doing enough) for the poor and oppressed. I think that, unless you have proof of that, it seems a bit unfair. As well, although the poor and oppressed call out to us for help, there is more to Christian ministry than just that focus.
Dear Ms. Bean, I am sure he is doing something. But giving alms is not enough. He is not giving himself in a manner that can be emulated. His focus is clearly elsewhere. I can even point out where: he has got it into his head that the Devil can be dethroned by main force! Of argument, at that! This is a losing battle. There may have been some victories in the beginning, but Mr. Wilson is charging uphill against an Adversary who invented the very weapon he loves to use: rhetoric. Don’t take on the Devil at his game.… Read more »
In the huge mission field that lies before us, there is a place for different ministries and different ministers. I would argue that the rhetoric may not be intended to vanquish the devil so much as it is intended to awaken the sleeping conscience of those who are doing the devil’s work. Of course, there is a place for persuasion. Of course, we should be winning hearts through acts of kindness. But there is also a time for people to use whatever influence they may have to confront the powerful who have fallen into evil. The example of the saints… Read more »
Dear Ms. Bean,
All you say is true. Saints must be brave as well as kind: and those qualities are the product of a large tender heart that knows the sufferings of the poor.
What saints must not do is give up on people. People are never the enemy. The most hedonistic, depraved, wicked soul can be the next Augustine or Paul.
The example of the saints is before us.
While we’re supposed to pray for and love our enemies, please note that God still calls them enemies. What saints must do is to see things as God sees them.
“What saints must do is to see things as God sees them.”
I totally agree. However, if people perceive God as judgemental, unforgiving, harsh, that is how they treat other people too, and they often believe they really are seeing people and things as God sees them. We often assume our enemies are God’s enemies and we are not always correct there.
I sure hope no one thinks of an animal shelter as a ministry, certainly not on par with feeding the hungry and sheltering unwed mothers. If someone wants that as their hobby or vocation, ok, and they can use it engage in ministry, but sheltering animals isn’t any ministry that God has called us to. We’re here to help people, and animals are one of the tools that God has created for us to use; not to place them at the same level with people.
That’s a really good point. A long with all the other insanity in our culture, it is popular those days to place more value on animals than we do on people.
That’s certainly true in our current situation, and I’d say animal shelters as they are currently structured go pretty far down the list. (Not that there is anything wrong with the structure of shelters in general, but they are mostly about sheltering pets so they can be adopted, not rescuing the truly abused, though that plays a part also.) But I wonder if jllly has in mind times and places in history where rescuing animals from abuse in a very hard-hearted culture stood as a witness to God’s love of His creation as a whole. There may have been a… Read more »
Well, it’s somewhat tragic but many of our laws against abusing women and children have sprung forth from our laws against abusing animals. The amount of money spent on protecting pets today can be just astounding, both in the private sector as individuals, and in non profits. There’s some really disturbing aspects to it, because I often wonder if our culture actually places more value on animals than it does on human beings.
I don’t wonder. I know that at least swathes of our culture do put more value on animals than on human beings. Witness the gorilla nonsense of the last few days.
I do see your point but I respectfully disagree a little. (Not about the poor gorilla; I am very sorry he had to be shot, but anyone who thinks the gorilla’s life was more valuable than the child’s is a moral imbecile.) I think that humans have a duty of care toward animals that we have domesticated, called on to work for us, or taken into our homes with an understanding that we will provide food, shelter, and kind treatment. As a crazy cat lady, I do understand the temptation of indulging animals at the expense of humans who need… Read more »
Vishwanath, telling Caesar he is not God is fighting the devil’s fire with devil’s fire? News to me.
Dear Mr. Wilson, Thank you for engaging with me. Please understand that I am a great admirer of your work. The way you present some aspects of Scripture is unsurpassed among your peers. However you are not doing what you just claimed. You have not yet told Caesar that he is not God. You are doing the equivalent of shouting into the wind. Your voice is too weak for Caesar to hear. And that is because our real Adversary has out maneuvered you. The Devil has you thinking he can be beaten with rhetoric alone. That if you win arguments,… Read more »
“There are powerful ways of engaging the culture which gets Caesar hopping mad: that continually remind him of his impotence. But these involve deploying the Lord’s weapons.”
Well, in keeping with very point you are trying to make – Pray tell what are they? Thanks.
Dear Mr. M,
The weapons of the Lord are prayer, trust, faithfulness, love joy and mercy. Against these the Devil is powerless.
The Christian’s power to do good far exceeds the Devil’s ability to harm. Wield it in the Lord’s name.
Thanks again. However, that doesn’t sound like employing weapons or engaging the culture as much just living the life to which the Christian is called, regardless of impact on the culture. Mind you, I’m not the one who said “engaging the culture” was the priority in the first place. But perhaps the culture will take notice. You think because of these things Caesar will get hopping mad and continually be reminded of his impotence? That was the other part of my “what are they” question.
Hi!
If one lives like this, being a blessing for one’s neighbours with the Lord as our strength and joy, the Devil trembles. He sees a glimpse of his end.
You don’t have to do anything special.
Right, but that does not have to do so much with Caesar, not directly anyway. If your point is that being heard by Caesar and engaging the culture is not our prime directive I would not disagree. Personally I don’t care that much if we’re heard by Caesar or not, and I’m not out to make Caesar mad. I just want Caesar to be competent at fulfilling his God given mandate to maintain civil order, to not reward evil and punish good, and to refrain from interfering with the Church.
Dear Mr. JohnM,
The point about Caesar was merely an illustration of how powerful God is. Take any desirable social and political outcome and lay it at God’s feet.
Then go and work towards helping the poor, the broken and the oppressed. Note that the point of this help is eventually to direct them to the Source of all Blessings so that they can draw their strength directly from Him.
Eventually, without particularly working towards it, we will find that the other objectives have been fulfilled.
V’, here is one thing the Lord tells all of us: (even without prayer) James 4 7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up. I suppose there are plenty of ways to resist the devil, and blog posts may be one of them.… Read more »
Vishwanath Haily Dalvi wrote: The Devil has you thinking he can be beaten with rhetoric alone. That if you win arguments, you will automatically win hearts. This is a bold rebuke considering that I’ve often heard Wilson teach specifically that rhetoric does not change hearts, and that God must intervene. Recall that Wilson aligns with Calvin and not Finney. So Wilson does not credit rhetoric, or careful methodology and manipulation, for heart conversion. Rather Wilson practices a broad range of rhetorical styles, from tender to biting, in order to imitate and learn from the examples of rhetoric that Christ gave… Read more »
Well, I don’t think Vishwanath was criticizing Wilson anymore than I was. It is simply a fact that there are many Christians who have declared war on people, rather than on the enemy. Wilson’s blog attracts some of them. That’s not a complaint about Wilson, but it is an indication that there is some confusion among people about what representing Christ is all about. It is not about declaring everyone except those who think and believe exactly as you, to be the enemy of Christ.
Dear Mr Katecho,
Please see Ms. ME’s reply below. If you go up and check carefully, you will find no judgement was passed.
An alarm was sounded.
Dalvi wrote: Please see Ms. ME’s reply below. If you go up and check carefully, you will find no judgement was passed. No judgement was passed? Dalvi has been delivering non-stop judgement. Here is a sample: You say that you declare the Lordship of our Lord. Very good. Then why do you not do what He says? The Devil has baited his trap and it appears you have taken the bait. And that is because our real Adversary has out maneuvered you. The Devil has you thinking he can be beaten with rhetoric alone. Mr. Wilson has mistaken the victims… Read more »
Spot ON.
Dear Mr Katecho,
What you are taking exception to is the sounding of the alarm.
From the nature of your comments, the alarm is timely. You should go back and read what you have just written.
I stand by what I have just written.
Dear Mr. Katecho,
I did what I considered best. You decide what to make of it.
Speaking of sounding the alarm:
Dear Mr Katecho,
Good advice. You should take it.
Vishwanath Haily Dalvi wrote:
Why are you arguing with people on a blog rather than fighting the Devil?
Dear Mr Jigawatt,
Can you not tell from the content of my posts?
You mean posts like,
Dear Mr Jigawatt,
Yes. Like those.
Dude, you’re like the guy who puts a dogpile in a burning paper sack on somebody’s front porch, and then rings the doorbell and runs off into the bushes to hide and watch the chaos. Such fun!
Dear Mr Malachi,
Have a pleasant day yourself.
Are you not the same one who was glorifying in the thought of being able to help send the transgendered to the gas chamber? Judging from your own comments Malachi, nobody has to trick you into stomping on dog poo, you come pre-loaded with your very own.
Nope…not me. I have never glorified in the thought. Undoubtedly, you are mistaken. If you had not blown your emotions into smithereens, you would have understood my position; namely, my prayers that our judicial system would take as seriously those things that God does, and when God calls something an abomination and/or calls for a criminal’s execution, that our system of jurisprudence would resemble His righteous Law.
But you were blinded by your own flames. Even now you hurl personal attacks at me instead of engaging the actual conversation. I had figured you for a more careful rendering than that.
I am not mistaken at all and if you think this is how someone behaves when they have “blown their emotions to smithereens,” you have lived a very sheltered life indeed.
“..when God calls something an abomination and/or calls for a criminal’s execution, that our system of jurisprudence would resemble His righteous Law.”
“The wages of sin are death” and “none are righteous not one,” so any Christian worth their salt ought to know that “His righteous law” is about forgiveness, redemption, and reconciliation, not glorgfying in the opportunity to execute people you believe are worse sinners than you are.
Well…I JUST got through clarifying my position, which you missed from the beginning and insist upon missing even now. Again, I do NOT “glorify in the thought or opportunity”–as you continue to say–to execute people. And you are insinuating purely false and unjust motives when you say that I wish to do anything from a basis of belief that they are “worse sinners” than me. Why have you gone down this horrible, slanderous, uncharitable route with me? For the sake of pure clarity, my position then and now is prayers and hopes that our State and local governments would more… Read more »
“I’m bewildered that you continue to lambast me with manufactured and unkind insinuations about my beliefs and motives.” Because people read your words and the words of some of the others, and they discern the meaning behind them and they think this is how all Christians are, and than I get to suffer because of venom being spewed by others in Christ’s name. That is why I continue to lambast you. Now perhaps you and some of the others have cloaked your words in pretty rhetoric, but your intent and meaning still comes through loud and clear and anyone with… Read more »
“Now perhaps you and some of the others have cloaked your words in pretty rhetoric, but your intent and meaning still comes through loud and clear and anyone with a lick of sense is going to read exactly that into the things you say.”
Assumeing other people have cloaked intentions and meanings is not the wisest way to engage in a blog comment section.
“Assuming other people have cloaked intentions and meanings is not the wisest way to engage in a blog comment section.”
Have you read the comments from people expressing approval for slavery and for executing the transgendered? Because many others have and rather than simply stating the obvious, that it is not okay, Christians on this very board have spun excuses for it.
If you disagree with the very thought of capital punishment (for anything), then a simple “I don’t agree with capital punishment” would have long ago sufficed to demarcate our differences. I do believe in capital punishment, and I also believe in the duty of our various jurisdictions to follow God’s Law when carrying out that highest of sentence. You can disagree, but please do so without such vitriol and character assassination. When God says, “For this sin, he shall surely die” (whether He’s speaking of murder, bestiality, homosexuality, idolatry, witchcraft, etc.), you really should not yell and scream at me… Read more »
Malachi, I do not believe I have engaged in “character assassination, vitriol, acidic bile,” nor have I been “yelling and screaming,” nor am I being “horrible, slanderous, uncharitable,” nor have I “blown my emotions into smithereens.”
I simply believe it is unacceptable to claim that God would approve of us shoving the transgendered into the gas chamber.
May I replay some of your diatribes, then? “You come pre-loaded with your very own [dog poo]” “Malachi represents the same kind of religious fools who crucified Jesus Christ, causing me to declare that he would get great pleasure from killing Him all over again.” “The ideas espoused by Malachi are absolutely monstrous … pure and simple sheer evil and a really crappy representation of anything Christ taught.” “[Malachi] glorifies in the idea of executing homosexuals.” “[Malachi] would prefer to cowardly hide his own murderous desires behind ‘magistrates’ and some odd perversion of Scripture, therefore transforming his own wickedness into… Read more »
“Can you extend a smidgen of respect my way if I try to think consistently about this?”
Of course. Saul was once out executing Christians himself. I suppose if there is hope for him, there is hope for anyone. He too was a big fan of enforcing, “God’s written penalties.”
Hmmm…I wouldn’t think you comparing me to the unsaved Christian-killing Saul is a good example of extending a smidgen of respect my way; rather, it sounds much more like another overly-emotional, uncharitable, vitriolic character assassination. Please try a different approach. And then there’s the very real problem with your analogy in the fact that Saul was actually NOT “enforcing God’s written penalties.” Saul was executing Christians for the sole reason that they believed on Christ; God certainly never wrote THAT into His righteous Law!! Are you quite certain that you can even see straight with so much animosity pouring out… Read more »
What am I supposed to do with someone who takes such offense at being compared to Saul and considers that some kind of grave insult? How do I even speak to people who would label Vishwanath a troll, who tell Clay Crouch he is doing marriage all wrong, and who genuinely seem to believe God has called us to shove the transgendered into the gas chamber? What do I say to those like Rand whose own morality won’t allow them to follow such perversions of God’s word, so they reject Christ entirely? You tell me how this bizarre, legalistic religious… Read more »
“What do I say to those like Rand whose own morality won’t allow them to follow such perversions of God’s word, so they reject Christ entirely?”
Oh spare me. Rand can’t even take a simple correction without going into a hissy fit of denial. His ego and dishonesty won’t allow it. It’s not his alleged pristine morality that’s the problem.
I can’t think of a more vicious thing to say to a Christian than that he or she would take pleasure in killing our Lord. I gently urge you to disengage from discussion with any Christians who think an accusation like this is a fair weapon. We expect this from nonbelievers; we don’t expect it from our own so it is hurtful and destructive. And I will try harder to follow my own advice!
Such indignation, sheesh. There’s a lovely song I like, “How Deep the Father’s Love.” and one of the phrases goes,
“Behold the man upon a cross
My sin upon His shoulders
Ashamed I hear my mocking voice
Call out among the scoffers”
We are the scoffers, we are the ones who sent Jesus to the cross, not the non believers, not our enemies, us. When we can truly grasp that point, it is a great blessing, not an accusation.
I do understand that point. I think it is an accusation that we should always be making against ourselves personally–that our sins brought about the death of our Lord, and that, had we lived then, we would probably have behaved no differently than the people in the mob. But, I do see a difference between accusing myself of such a thing (and I do) and accusing someone else. I guess I would wonder: did you intend that Malachi be blessed by your telling him you think he would take pleasure in killing our Lord? If I said anything similar to… Read more »
“I think it is an accusation that we should always be making against ourselves personally…” You have got to be kidding me, Jilly! In a discussion about actually executing the transgendered, it offends your delicate sensibilities that I would remind people that Christ died for us too, because that might somehow cause offense? “But, I do see a difference between accusing myself of such a thing (and I do) and accusing someone else.” Yes, yes, I see that you do. And that is my point precisely. Execution for all the sinners, but only gentle mercy for me, please? What makes… Read more »
If I had ever said or believed that I deserve mercy while others do not, that would be truly shocking. I deserve no mercy and no grace. I can think of dozens of people I know personally who I believe have a greater claim on God’s mercy than I have. I have stated my opposition to the death penalty numerous times. I think you do not believe me, and there is nothing I can say to persuade you otherwise. I am not willing to prove my anti-death penalty credentials by throwing Malachi under the Tolerance Bus–which is probably the only… Read more »
“I do not believe that I have a right to make that statement about you or Malachi, especially if there could be any subconscious intention on my part to cause pain.”
What subconscious intention to cause pain? If someone said Christ died for ME, my response would be, “Hallelujah! God is good, indeed!”
For crying out loud Jilly, you are Christian calling me out for potentially causing “subconscious pain” and offense by mentioning the cross, while simultaneously supporting those who advocate executing the transgendered. What is wrong with that picture?
What is wrong with the picture is that I did not say anything even remotely similar to what you are implying. We are not talking about someone saying, “Christ died for me.” We are talking about your telling someone that you think he would have enjoyed killing Jesus. It is the difference between my saying, “Christ died for you, ME” and my saying “ME, you are the kind of person who would take delight in murdering Jesus.” Do you see that difference?
Jilly, Christ did not just “die” for us. He was brutally murdered, slowly tortured and eventually executed. “Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” So, when we speak of executing the transgendered, spiritually we might as well be speaking of executing Christ Himself. We’ve had this conversation before, the one where you thought I was calling you a murdereress. When we hold such ideas in our heart, we really are murderers, we are the same as those who killed Christ Himself. I believe that is as… Read more »
I have disengaged…mostly. It is not altogether surprising to see such rancor when a modern god has been toppled, nor the swiftness by which moderns try to place it aright on its pedestal. But I am quite shocked at the depths to which fellow Christians have plunged as they try to excoriate me.
Jillybean, I admire the way in which you have disagreed with my position. Your manner is graceful and thoughtful…thank you! Thanks also for your similarly graceful defense of me from the ravenous wolves who, sadly, have now turned on you because of your gracious demeanor to me.
What’s ironic is the “ravenous wolves” claim to act “in the love of Christ.” The most hateful, pride-filled commenters play victims while casting stones. They attribute false quotes and positions to others, and never provide exegetical arguments for their nebulous positions.
Oh puh-lease. I have to tell you, there is truly nothing more pathetic than a man who must chronically play the victim card and refer to people like me as ravenous wolves! Again, any fool that thinks I’m the enemy has obviously never met him. Gird your darn loins and grow the heck up, because there are things out there far bigger and badder than me.
Don’t flatter yourself. I certainly meet bigger and badder things every day. It’s just sad to see how common your way of thinking is (my feelings = spirit of the age = Holy Spirit?). BTW, in regard to another comment of yours, the church, insomuch as it’s aligned with Scripture, is our “safeguard” and the pillar and foundation of truth (I Tim 3:15). It’s extremely dangerous to acknowledge your Biblical reading comp problems but assume the Holy Spirit will guide your every thought…
I think I am tougher skinned than I appear! No one who has spent years dealing with recalcitrant teens, the school system’s and my own, falls apart at a little criticism. I think that one of the central problems with make-it-up-as-you-go-along theology is that it ultimately hits you over the head with its logical contradictions. This has happened to me many times when I have tried to reshape some item of pesky Catholic dogma to make it more immediately palatable to me! I am blessed that when my own contradictions are pointed out to me, my natural tendency is to… Read more »
Yes, but there is not really any way to tell why they are spinning excuses. Unless they give one.
When Malachi says ‘I do not glorify in the thought or oprotunity to execute transexuals’ there is no point in insisting that he does.
There certainly is a point in insisting that he hear his own words. They have meaning and intent behind them. In this particular case he believes homosexuality and people being transgendered are criminal acts worthy of the DP, and he than says “I do believe in capital punishment, and I also believe in the duty of our various jurisdictions to follow God’s Law when carrying out that highest of sentence.”
He also said ‘For the sake of pure clarity, my position then and now is prayers and hopes that our State and local governments would more closely align with God’s Word, especially when dealing with the criminal element.’ Why is this ‘cloaking his intentions’ and not a better/clearer statement of his actual position?
“Why is this ‘cloaking his intentions’ and not a better/clearer statement of his actual position?”
He believes the bible demands the death penalty for the transgendered and he wants governments to align with what he believes to be God’s word.
A clearer statement of his actual position would be, “I want the state to execute the transgendered.”
Do you disapprove of the death penalty in all instances? Do you believe that the Old Testament was mistaken in its statements that God called for the death penalty for certain crimes?
Yes VHD, you are in treading dangerously when you dare challenge a righteous christian authority on his interpretation of the gospels… especially the calvinist-master of his house Douglas Wilson. Wilsonian martinet katecho rightly reminds you of the triumvirate of reformed thought control: ‘gossip, bitter, slander’. Where ‘criticism and casual judgment’ appear, they are likely to follow. A trio you can invoke apparently at will to attempt to silence the faithful who dare to break lock-step.
Dear Mr. Rand man,
The term ‘martinet’ is unfortunately apt. I seem to have stumbled into the offices of a political party with a complaint against their leader.
Do you know who said this:
“Is your leader so insecure that he cannot afford a few faults? “
I do not! I’ll bite as it is an interesting quote.
(Be careful tho VHD, friendly or sympatico correspondence with me here can be damaging. I am happy to be the bad guy, but I don’t want to tar you by association.)
Dear Mr. RandMan,
I am afraid I will be leaving these boards. So what they think of me is hardly my concern.
But it was a surprisingly unpleasant experience.
I wish you well in your relationship with God and with Jesus Christ (such as it is). I hope your interactions here has not prejudiced your view of God. I hope you realize how much He loves you.
Cheers VHD, I find these boards unpleasant as well. But in a way that is why I come here. I would say that if I did ever return to believing in a christian god (which I likely will not) it would be because of the influence of those like yourself who respond consistently with obvious compassion, the desire to spread love, and the good parts of the message which you so clearly take to heart. Even a non-beleiver can feel that. Not to revel in the biblio-legal justification for their bad ideas and subsequent behavior, immorality and biting back in… Read more »
I find myself wondering how we can fight the devil if the world is off limits. My theological training says that the world is the devil’s playground, and we unhappy mortals are far too often his minions–knowingly or unknowingly. If we may not confront evil when we see it (including in ourselves), what does resisting the devil actually look like? I agree with Dalvi that Christians must feed the poor. I can’t imagine anyone here disagreeing with so basic a statement of Christ’s teaching. But I doubt that it makes Satan tremble. And even if it did, don’t we have… Read more »
Jilly, I would love to sit for an hour or so in a coffeeshop with you some day. I believe it would be a truly delightful experience! And I suspect I would return home with several of my own thoughts gently corrected while my heart was also uplifted.
I wish we could too!
And if you perform a careful reading of katecho’s response, you will find he was not judging so much as giving you a clearer and perhaps better perspective on Wilson’s approach and calling…so that you will not sound so many false alarms. Also, re: ME’s statements, which you reference. It is not clear as to why she believes “many Christians…have declared war on people rather than on the enemy.” This is a surprising statement considering the obvious falseness of it. Admittedly, there probably are some Christians who focus on the wrong objective, but not “many.” Her final statement is telling… Read more »
Dear Mr. Malachi,
Not many alarms. Just one. This one.
I am glad I sounded it. I suggest you reflect prayerfully on what I said.
Could you BE any more slippery? Everything you say is evasive and vague and crafted specifically to assure you can never be held to account. Why?
Dear Mr Malachi,
I don’t care to oblige.
I think we are being trolled, and I don’t think he is serious. Maybe he is actually 40 Mules and a Kardashian come back in disguise!
Dear Ms. Bean, You have an interesting definition of “troll”. However you are correct in implying that I am no longer pursuing my original point. I seem to have incurred the wrath of the dear leader. His minions have been hounding me. Very interesting. But in dead earnest, please ask these people to fall on knees and repent before the Lord decides to discipline them in a less pleasant way. You will also be pleased to know that I will not be bothering your group again. This is a task that calls for hearts much larger than mine. God bless… Read more »
I did not wonder if you were a troll until towards the very end of your commenting here, when you started giving flippant responses to questions that I thought were serious. I am puzzled that you call Pastor Wilson “dear leader”, assuming you mean it in the North Korean sense of a tyrant surrounded by fawning sycophants motivated by terror. Up until now, your only complaints about Wilson were that he doesn’t give enough money to the poor and he doesn’t fight the devil in the way you think most effective. But it sounds as if you are troubled that… Read more »
I am afraid I have to disagree. Goodbye Ms. Bean. God bless!
Dear Mr Malachi,
You have nothing to worry about then.
Huh?
the emperor is a unic in invisible drag. Government is not a quadrant of sacrimental authority-but the well evolved HR dept. of critical theory. Any leader is all about the women, the children, the picked on ambiguios. BUT- with a champion in the MIC. You fools are completely ineffective and hand-wringingly so, because youve retreated also from arguments of authority. How ironic pastors as presidents lord it over all the while spouting poetry on their femininity and humility. Like Nero they build monuments to their own humility. the modern images are mental. All the ink and amplified lectures in the… Read more »
So– and this question is a bit off the topic– what do we make of churches that deny the trinity, or, at the very best, resort to modalism to stave off critics?
I feel we’re closing in on the last act of That Hideous Strength. I’m not going to any dinner parties anytime soon.
Goodbye, Vishwanath, and God bless. Whenever you need to take a break from fighting the Devil, feel free to return.