A Brief Excursus Related to Roy Moore

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Another round of allegations came out over the last several days. These are allegations that Moore is now contradicting himself—i.e. that he acknowledged more in his Hannity interview than he is acknowledging out on the stump now. Now if he said in one place that he knew some of the girls and in another place that he didn’t know any of them, that is what philosophers understand as kind of an A and not A situation.

I am currently in the process of trying to get access to side-by-side video footage of all that. I will let you know what I find, and if Moore is plainly lying, I will say so. That is the kind of thing that impeaches a witness. My reluctance to condemn Moore, which is pretty apparent, is no absolute. I have no intention, to use the words of Francis Bacon, of offering to “the Author of Truth the unclean sacrifice of a lie.” And I know there are ostensibly “conservative” defenders of Moore out there who do not feel the same constraints, and who give the secularists ample opportunity to blaspheme.

But why do I appear to be dragging my feet at all? Why am I looking for video? Why video with no cuts, and video that provides the before and after context? Because, as C.S. Lewis once said, we shouldn’t condemn a dog on the basis of newspaper extracts.

Let’s ask the big question. Why is this even a race? How is Moore still in it at all? There are multiple factors, but The Wall Street Journal shares part of that answer with us. A good portion of the answer is that the establishment media has been disgracing and beclowning itself for decades now, and conservative people just don’t believe them anymore. And it is right and proper that the people don’t believe them. That boy has had way too much fun with his wolf story. The WSJ article cites a CBS poll that indicates that 71% of Alabama Republicans simply don’t believe the allegations. It would be easy to say that this is simply because they are red state goobers, but the right answer lies in a completely different direction.

Now I have seen this play up close and personal any number of times. I have seen it in the secular press and I have seen it in World magazine. When you are in the middle of a story, and you know the facts on the ground, and you see how it often gets represented to the larger world, and how easily it can be misconstrued, the end result is that primary observers are often what the King James translators would have described as “astonied.”

People glibly say that the charges against Moore, as first reported by The Washington Post, are “credible.” “Why, Wilson, do you not join in the stampede of instantaneous acceptance? Why do they not seem nearly so credible to you?” Well, sonny, let me tell you. Many of these establishment figures who find such charges so credible are also the same kind of people who find the things said about us and our ministry here in Moscow “credible.” But I happen to know that the things being circulated about us are a farrago of mendacious nonsense.

For just one example, within just the last few weeks, I have been misrepresented by Kathryn Brightbill in The Los Angeles Times, in The Chicago Tribune, and at Religion News Service. For whatever reason, whatever Moore did or did not do forty years ago, I have good reason to believe that the same kind of play is being run on us. As in, right now. On the basis of this bundle of lies, some personage, just the other day, tweeted this: “Another reason to be concerned about Piper & Desiring God. DG publishes stuff by Doug Wilson. Wilson has a documented history of mishandling sexual abuse cases within his congregation & he supports child marriage.” This is followed by a link to the Tribune version of the article.

So then, Doug Wilson supports child marriage, does he?

Not only do I not find such charges credible, I also find news outlets who publish them to be incredible. They buy their ink by the barrel, and so they do not feel the need to accept correction. They are above all correction, and now we find ourselves in the position where vast swaths of the populace simply disregard whatever they say.

Let me conclude with a couple of shrewd takeaways from the Journal.

“They may well be wrong about Mr. Moore and his accusers, but is their skepticism really that difficult to understand?”

“So if Mr. Moore does find himself Alabama’s newest senator next Tuesday night, it may be as much the fault of those who opposed him as those who supported him.”

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Malik
Malik
6 years ago

Conservatives are hopeless on this. If this was a liberal politician Wilson would be attacking him nonstop. And you said that people accused you of mishandling in these cases but you didn’t even outright deny them, much less give any evidence against it.

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

Malik, show me Doug’s non-stop attacks on Al Franken and John Conyers.

I’ll wait.

Malik
Malik
6 years ago

In earlier blog posts he condemned them. The reason that he doesn’t keep talking about it is because no one is arguing against him. I’m saying if there was a liberal politician in the Same situation as Moore, with liberals defending him and conservatives attacking, Doug would be attacking him as well. And call the liberal viewpoint an “attack on truth and reason” etc.

Ben
Ben
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

So you’re accusing Wilson of showing tribal favoritism, huh? Let me ask you, “Malik,” are your people known for putting objective truth, universal principles, and the avoidance of double standards over and above their own tribal interests?

Malik
Malik
6 years ago
Reply to  Ben

So much for a discussion based on facts or arguments or reason. You haven’t addressed anything that I said. Next you don’t know me, and don’t know who “my people” are. You might be surprised. And yes this is exactly what I’m accusing Doug of. Now to humor your ad hominum argument. I assume by my people you think you are referring to liberals. And I would make the argument that the tables have switched and liberals have been standing for truth over conservatives during the Trump administration. Trump lies as a matter of course and daily buissness. Politifact, John… Read more »

Dave
Dave
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

Malik, If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor. Also, keep in mind that your insurance premiums weren’t supposed to skyrocket — however, those of us who pay the bills know that they did indeed take off for the moon.

If you stick around for a few years, you will see that liberals and conservatives are given the same treatment.

Malik
Malik
6 years ago
Reply to  Dave

I have absolutely no idea what this has to do with anything that I said. And if you are accusing me of not paying for my own things, stop. You don’t know me and I’ve been working construction to pay for myself starting when I was 14

Dave
Dave
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

“Trump lies as a matter of course and daily buissness.” Malik@213700

Just leveling the playing field is all, Malik. I am sure you can see that now.

Malik
Malik
6 years ago
Reply to  Dave

I still have no idea what your point is

Malik
Malik
6 years ago
Reply to  Dave

Ohh, sorry, you’re arguing on my side, my bad. I thought you were arguing against me.

soylentg
soylentg
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

Malik says: ” And I would make the argument that the tables have switched and liberals have been standing for truth over conservatives during the Trump administration.”
Glad to see that Malik has taken the positive step of admitting that during the previous administration, conservatives were standing for truth and the previous administration lied “as a matter of course and daily buissness.” It takes a big man to make an admission like that, …or one who doesn’t really think through his statements.

Malik
Malik
6 years ago
Reply to  soylentg

I actually said nothing about the last administration. Honestly I didn’t care and didn’t follow politics, and that changed for personal reasons. However I had heard a lot of complaining by Christians that the mainstream culture did not believe in truth, and I believe them that there was that cultural problem. Now it has switched and become a problem with conservatives. I don’t know if the last administration lied, I’m sure they did at least at times. I do know however that Trump is worse than anyone else I’ve ever seen, to the point of seeming psychotic. He truly seems… Read more »

soylentg
soylentg
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

Malik says: “I actually said nothing about the last administration. Honestly I didn’t care and didn’t follow politics, and that changed for personal reasons.” Oh but you did. When you said: ” And I would make the argument that the tables have switched and liberals have been standing for truth over conservatives during the Trump administration. Trump lies as a matter of course and daily buissness. (sic)” Now if the tables have turned (to repair your metaphor), then there must be something they have turned from. The way in which you used the phrase suggest that the truth tellers and… Read more »

Malik
Malik
6 years ago
Reply to  soylentg

I see how there was a misunderstanding. I am going off of the complaints that I heard from other older Christians. I’m telling the truth I didn’t follow politics at all until recently. And yeah Trump is the worst I’ve seen. Go to politifact he has one of the worst truth ratings out there. And he’s the worst lier that I’ve seen in current politics. Not compared to Obama, except on politifact, but just in today’s environment. And they had a grossly rediculous use of a comparison to a loaded question, this was a misunderstanding. Your personal attack could have… Read more »

soylentg
soylentg
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

Or you could consider my pointing out your ignorance as an act of kindness.

Malik
Malik
6 years ago
Reply to  soylentg

Hahahahaha or I could be stupid and do that, I guess that is an option

Dave
Dave
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

Malik, since you are just starting to follow politics, you should read more and watch closely to see how the magicians perform their tricks. Both sides have crooked individuals deceiving the masses. As a note, the only reason that the left is getting after a few sex offenders is because they need press to draw attention from more important issues. In the past, Arkansas knew that Bill Clinton was a dog. So, did Washington D.C. but no one wanted to stand up for their principles because there wasn’t any money or power to be gained from doing so. I recommend… Read more »

Malik
Malik
6 years ago
Reply to  Dave

Yeah, this is true. I have found some good political commentaries that expose and attack both sides, and is very academic. As for the left needing to distract, I would disagree, seeing that the closer people look at this tax scam the better for the left, but we don’t need to get into that. We can definitely agree that politics is messed up.

Dave
Dave
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

Yes, our politics are a twisted, helicopter crash mess. That is because we have had decades of weak preaching, teaching and a lack of basic doctrine for American Christians.

Leslie Sneddon
Leslie Sneddon
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

Malik, your fruit is showing BIG TIME!

Malik
Malik
6 years ago
Reply to  Leslie Sneddon

What do you mean?

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

Liberals ARE defending Franken and Conyers, Malik. Or are you not paying attention?

You might want to retract your whole “non-stop attacks” assertion, as it is patently false — as you yourself admitted.

Malik
Malik
6 years ago

Seems you have made the common mistake of people who hate the left of thinking that all leftists are the same. The majority of leftists renounced Roy Moore. Some said that they liked his apology, vox, one of my favorite networks said that his apology was terrible. And i said that is what he would do if Moore was leftist.

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

Malik, you said: The majority of leftists renounced Roy Moore. OF COURSE they did, you twit. The left points and shrieks at anyone on the right who is the target of accusations. As a bonus, even the Republican establishment renounced Roy Moore faster than they’ve ever passed tax reform legislation. Part of the leftist playbook is trying to make the enemy “live up to his own rules”. However, with a growing list of sixty and more leftists being outed as sexual perverts, the left, including you, are in no position to be lecturing anyone about sexual shenanigans. Time for the… Read more »

Malik
Malik
6 years ago

Like I have said multiple time, I am not a leftist, don’t discredit me because the side that also believes in this issue that I’m arguing has issues. Also the left has the decency to strongly renounce when one of their own does something disgusting and appalling. This is commendable from a Christian perspective. Now, maybe Doug would have condemned it, maybe condemned it nonstop. Who knows? Maybe I made a mistake but maybe you did, truth is neither of us know what he would have done. Now about playing with the big boys here, give me a break. You… Read more »

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

Malik, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and in any way looks like a duck, chances are… it’s a duck.

You talk like a leftist — in other words, out both sides of your mouth. Anyone who thinks blacks are systemically oppressed, especially after eight years of Obama, is a delusional leftist. I know exactly which side you’re on, so spare me your sanctimonious blather.

Time to either put up or shut up. Show me Doug’s nonstop attacks on Al Franken and John Conyers. You made the assertion, now back it up.

Malik
Malik
6 years ago

Yes I think they are because I have seen it. And you can’t tell me I’m a leftist, again, you don’t know me. Speaking of Obama, that is .5 black presidents out of 45. So it makes my point. And I’m not attacking him for being half black but as race goes we really haven’t even had a completely black president. And you don’t know exactly what side I’m on, cool it smart mouth. You can’t just tell me what I am, I don’t know you and don’t care what you say or think. And I’ll shut up, because I… Read more »

OKRickety
OKRickety
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

Malik,

“If this was a liberal politician Wilson would be attacking him nonstop.”

“… because I never said Wilson attacked Al Franklin nonstop.”

Per your first statement, Wilson would have attacked Al Franken (not Franklin) nonstop. Now you correctly state that Wilson has not attacked Al Franken nonstop. In other words, you have provided sufficient evidence to show the inanity of the first statement.

I suggest you quit being so insistent that you possess the truth.

Malik
Malik
6 years ago
Reply to  OKRickety

I believe the difference is in the defence. People defend Moore and attack Moore, no one is talking about franken, so you can’t draw the connection. Honestly we are talking in hypotheticals, no one can know who is right. I think he is clouded by hate of “those people on the left” you don’t, so that is really our core difference, and I don’t think we are going to resolve it.

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

Speaking of Obama, that is .5 black presidents out of 45.

So now you’re dismissing the historic presidency of Barack Hussein Obama by downplaying his blackness? You might want to check your privilege there, pal. I don’t think you’re down for the struggle.

And I’ll shut up…

I’ll believe it when I see it.

Malik
Malik
6 years ago

No I’m not at all, goodness, I said it right after. I’m saying a black president as opposed to 45. And the whole .5 was a reference to some stand up comedy

OKRickety
OKRickety
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

Malik, “Also the left has the decency to strongly renounce when one of their own does something disgusting and appalling.” Hardly. Maybe you should pay more attention to politics than you seem to be doing. Here is what Nancy Pelosi said about the allegations against John Conyers: ‘“John Conyers is an icon in our country,” she said. “He has done a great deal to protect women ….”’ And, Conyers, just like Moore, vigorously denied the allegations against him. Note: I realize that Pelosi has now changed her position and said Conyers should step down, and Conyers has now announced his… Read more »

Malik
Malik
6 years ago
Reply to  OKRickety

One counter example can hardly controdict the host of people renouncing franken etc.

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

Also the left has the decency to strongly renounce when one of their own does something disgusting and appalling.

Does the name “Nina Burleigh” mean anything to you?

Oh, but you’re not a leftist! You only defend the left with a fervor that you just can’t seem to muster for the other side.

Thanks for the hearty laugh, Malik.

Justin Parris
Justin Parris
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

“Seems you have made the common mistake of people who hate the left of thinking that all leftists are the same.” Wait a minute…… I could have sworn….. oh yes. “Conservatives are hopeless on this. ” ” Now it has switched and become a problem with conservatives. ” etc. Malik, I have to apologize for my inability to help you here. You’re running a twofold problem. You don’t have enough knowledge on the topic to understand the conversation, while at the same time thinking you’re more informed than average and anyone disagreeing must be under educated. When you start the… Read more »

Malik
Malik
6 years ago
Reply to  Justin Parris

True, I did over generalize. However I wasn’t as bad as using one lady to condemn the whole party. And yes, I have little frame of reference, but I have done a lot of research and listened to lots of good political commentary. So I lack personal reference but it doesn’t mean I am uninformed. Also, I realize Oliver isn’t exactly an upstanding source, but that is what made the point. If John Oliver is standing up for truth against Trump, there is a huge problem with Trump. Also don’t assume I think I’m more educated, I make my points… Read more »

Justin Parris
Justin Parris
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

You won’t find me objecting to much criticism of Trump, assuming the criticism itself is factually true. I appreciate your position. I just want you to understand two things that put you in a no-win scenario, even if you were correct here. 1. The basis of your criticism is the motive of conservatives, not necessarily the actual position they take. This is a tactic used by the left constantly, nonstop, on every issue, generally involving some slander thrown in for good measure. It is used so consistently that conservatives just flatly don’t pay it heed in any context anymore. So… Read more »

Bike Bubba
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

It ought to be added, ahem, that the evidence against Conyers and Franken is fairly strong. There are multiple pictures of Franken “grabbing some”, and Conyers has authorized payments to women who claim to have been abused. I believe there are also paper trails connecting them.

Contrast that with he said/she said against Moore, and a disturbing pattern of evidence contradicting those narratives–no phone in the room, no ban from the mall, yearbook not provided for inspection, not much time to interact with the girl–and I would hope that even a liberal partisan could see the difference in evidence.

paulm01
paulm01
6 years ago
Reply to  Bike Bubba

But in the leftist playbook accusation trumps evidence when it’s someone they want to tank…it’s that pesky double-standard in operation when the facts don’t fit the preferred narrative.

Malik
Malik
6 years ago
Reply to  paulm01

This is quite an empty argument. And conservatives can’t talk much of double standards or narritives. Furthermore again I never defended liberals

paulm01
paulm01
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

Uh huh…let’s see what happens with the FBI double-standard just uncovered, the rats are running to the dark corners.

Nothing wrong with liberals, it’s the leftists I have a problem with.

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

Malik, you defend liberals and leftists with your deafening silence. When you start denouncing every liberal accused of sexual misconduct by name, then we will begin to take you seriously. When you start talking about each and every leftist on the receiving end of accusations of sexual impropriety at least as much as we’ve talked about Roy Moore here, then we will begin to take you seriously. When you man up and admit that Mike Pence (a conservative) got it right with his principles and you start denouncing anyone on the left that ridiculed him for it, then we will… Read more »

Malik
Malik
6 years ago

Hahahaha, okay first, I did denounce Franklin by name. I’m not going to go through the list, neither am I asking you too. All I have asked is that the person writing the blog accept what has been made clear, which is very fair. And I’m not going to man up and admit pence was right, because I think his rule is rediculous, and he is the one not being a man and being able to control himself. My best friend is a girl, I’m alone with her plenty, one of my other closest friends in high school was also… Read more »

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

All I have asked is that the person writing the blog accept what has been made clear, which is very fair. What you actually said: If this was a liberal politician Wilson would be attacking him nonstop. Time to put up or shut up. Give us the evidence of the nonstop attacks against liberal politicians. You know, Billy Graham had the same exact rule with women that Pence has. To the best of my knowledge, no one has come forward with allegations of sexual misconduct against Graham either. That “rediculous” (and it’s spelled “ridiculous”, by the way) rule seems to… Read more »

Malik
Malik
6 years ago

I didn’t say that he did attack them, I said if Moore was liberal, Wilson would attack him nonstop. And if it makes you feel better I’ll ammend that to renounce. And I think the pence rule is rediculous it just means you don’t think you can control yourself around women, which is not a sign of a Godly man. And again, I don’t care what you say I’m going to continue to spend time with my best friends. Also, I agree that as a public figure that rule may be good for athstetics. The problem I have is thinking… Read more »

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

I didn’t say that he did attack them, I said if Moore was liberal, Wilson would attack him nonstop. And if it makes you feel better I’ll ammend that to renounce. Glad to see you’re more concerned with my feelings than your own credibility. But in this instance, I get to have my cake and eat it too: Feelz AND realz. And I think the pence rule is rediculous it just means you don’t think you can control yourself around women, which is not a sign of a Godly man. You just can’t help yourself, can you? And yet, from… Read more »

Malik
Malik
6 years ago

Please give the patronizing tone a break. You aren’t a big man. And I can see the value of it as a public figure. I have been told to follow it myself and this is what I have a problem with. The rule should be for public figures and perverts, not normal guys. Normal Joe’s need to be able to control themselves, and good men can. That is what I have trouble with. Now, you knew what I meant, you are just pulling my words out of context and trying to make sentences controdict each other. I think you are… Read more »

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

Malik, you flat contradicted yourself. Be a man and own your blunders. Also, learn to spell the word “ridiculous”. If you insist on misspelling it, you look, well, ridiculous. You think you know better than everyone. Fine. But don’t go saying the rule itself is ridiculous when you can see with your own eyes that the men who follow it are not the ones getting into trouble. The left think they’re so smart ridiculing men like Pence when it is their own that are dropping like flies because they thought they were above the rules. If anything, it is the… Read more »

Malik
Malik
6 years ago

I don’t see how, I think you are just misunderstanding me, but I well could have. As for the rest, I don’t feel like continuing this conversation, I have no need or want to convince you.

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

I think you are just misunderstanding me…

I understood you perfectly. Many times, I even quoted you. You make assertions you can’t back up, you say contradictory things, and, as Justin tried to gently tell you, you’re way out of your league.

It’s not that you’re misunderstood, Malik; it’s that you’re wrong.

Malik
Malik
6 years ago

Okay, again I’m done talking but I’m going to point out that no one is out of their league here. This isn’t the cream of the intelectual crop. You aren’t some expert in the field, or top of the intelectual food chain. This is the bottom of the barrel, not the top. A 15 year old isn’t “out of their league” here. As for me being wrong, I may be, but you haven’t argued that I’m wrong, you have argued that I suck at spelling or taken two quotes out of context and said that they controdict each other. You… Read more »

Malik
Malik
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

And this isn’t to did anyone’s intelect here, but like being realistic we all have other lives and just weigh in here in our free time

lndighost
lndighost
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

Malik, your thoughts on the Pence rule are confusing not just to fp. Careful phrasing is important if you’d like to be understood.

You appear to be saying:

A public figure might need that rule to protect his reputation, but if anyone else uses it, it must be because he is a pervert who can’t control himself.

If that is your position, it is very judgmental and not well thought-out. Are there really no other reasons a non-public figure might choose to use the rule?

Malik
Malik
6 years ago
Reply to  lndighost

Fair point, I didn’t phrase it we’ll at all. I think I am trying to say that trying to force the rule or even think someone should follow the rule assumed they are a pervert, or may be accused of something. I’ve had people who wanted me to follow it which was very off-putting. And I would say that I don’t understand why someone else would use it, though I fully admit that there could be a valid reason. From my point of view, people who follow it who are not visible figures are avoiding their son instead of dealing… Read more »

wackytobeme
wackytobeme
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

So are you accusing Pence of being a pervert because he refuses to be alone with another woman?

Jennifer Alwine Miller
Jennifer Alwine Miller
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

Malik, Of course you are free to hang out, alone, with whomever you please. I don’t think anyone here is trying to tell you otherwise. And it is honorable that you are able to control yourself; however, what makes Pence’s rule (for himself) so wise is that he has cut off any avenue for him to be accused, even falsely. That kind of wisdom shows a serious and humble application of Jesus’ warning to be “as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.” (Matt. 10:16)

Malik
Malik
6 years ago

No one here has but people have quoted Doug Wilson to me saying that I shouldn’t. And I understand the value of not being able to be accused, I think I said that somewhere. I definitely was not clear with my original wording, I see that as a public figure that might be a good idea.

OKRickety
OKRickety
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

Malik,

“Furthermore again I never defended liberals”

Perhaps not directly, but I don’t think you have condemned them, either, which is what you have done with Roy Moore, for example. Is it okay for Christians to be inconsistent? I would maintain that such behavior has the same mindset as those who lie.

Malik
Malik
6 years ago
Reply to  OKRickety

No I haven’t condemned them, and I’m not going to. I agree with more of what they say than Republicans. I did condemn Roy Moore, along with Al Franklin

Farinata degli Uberti
Farinata degli Uberti
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

Malik, the difference w/ Roy is that the facts are in dispute. Moore denies the allegations, whereas Franken apologized. The difference is not partisan, nor is it especially complex.

paulm01
paulm01
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

‘but you didn’t even outright deny them, much less give any evidence against it.”

Not required, otherwise any prominent person in society could spend half their day refuting false allegations. Similar to the strawman question “when did you stop beating your wife?”…not worth the energy in answering if the accused knows it’s false.

Malik
Malik
6 years ago
Reply to  paulm01

It seems you have read just enough logic and philosophy to have no idea what you are talking about. That isn’t how the loaded question works in many ways. Nor does it apply, nor is that how you refute it. And if someone accuses you of something you have to defend yourself that’s how the world works. A defendant can’t walk into court and say I know it’s false so I’m not going to defend myself. The defense that you can use islf you don’t want to answer is I don’t care what you think. Then the other side is… Read more »

Dave
Dave
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

Malik, isn’t our judicial system based on innocent until proven guilty? Now there is a difference between civil and criminal courts, but the premise is innocent until reliable, credible, verified evidence is presented otherwise.

Malik
Malik
6 years ago
Reply to  Dave

Yes, but it does not take much evidence to convict someone if they do not defend themselves. And as for myself, Wilson not defending himself is very fishy, and makes me wonder if his accusors are right and he has no response. Their evidence has convinced me, and he has offered no alternative, so I have no choice but to believe the evidence.

somethingclever
somethingclever
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

So I guess since Jesus didn’t refute the charges….

Malik
Malik
6 years ago

Roy Moore and Doug Wilson are both a far cry from Jesus

paulm01
paulm01
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

Like the rest of us…works in progress.

Malik
Malik
6 years ago
Reply to  paulm01

Of course, I was responding that someone tried to compare my argument to a situation with Jesus, which is ridiculous.

paulm01
paulm01
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

Malik: Oh I see, anyone can levy an accusation therefore it must be given its due otherwise it is assumed the accusation has merit? Hogwash. Never took philosophy, took engineering. The point of the “question” I posed is it has no good answer from the accused once levied…it’s a no win, therefore best to ignore it altogether if you know the truth. As I’ve said before, I’ll wait to see what any investigation discovers, if anything (so far, no investigation of Moore has occurred, just unproven allegations stacked on top of each other.) And based on the last 48 hours… Read more »

Malik
Malik
6 years ago
Reply to  paulm01

You would rather focus on them because it is more convenient for you. And the rest of the comment was bull with no point.

paulm01
paulm01
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

“You would rather focus on them because it is more convenient for you. And the rest of the comment was bull with no point.”

Yes, and, probably…only time will tell.

paulm01
paulm01
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

” And the rest of the comment was bull with no point.”

Listening to Mark Levin about to blow a gasket over the same thing I wrote that you define as “bull”. The man is an expert Constitutionalist with tens of years of experience in and around Washington, I prefer his take over CNN’s or Morning Joe.

Regardless, the general point still stands for Moore and this FBI mess: Just because someone makes an allegation, in the strange game of politics, it’s usually not true.

paulm01
paulm01
6 years ago
Reply to  paulm01

Hey! I’m in the negative likes…now I know how that feels. Need some self-esteem re-building now. {[:-)

Despite commenting, I’m not taking much of this seriously regardless it is serious business unfolding (including Moore’s predicament), moreso watching from a distance to see what truths surface.

Malik
Malik
6 years ago
Reply to  paulm01

Hahahahha join the club!!! It usually means you said something with enough force, you weren’t just waffling.

paulm01
paulm01
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

I’m seriously depressed now…might have to ask MeMe how she handles it.

I don’t [intentionally] waffle, but I am open to a good argument.

paulm01
paulm01
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

I really thought the “bloomin’ onion” quip should have garnered at least one up-vote. {[:-)

Malik
Malik
6 years ago
Reply to  paulm01

Hahahahaha

Malik
Malik
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

Let me add to this rediculous argument that I never defended the left and attacking the left is not a defense of the right. I said the right, in particular Wilson, is wrong and biased in their defense of Moore, and they would attack him if he was leftist. That is all I said. I’m not leftist nor did I defend Franklin or anything else on the left.

adad0
adad0
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

M’,
Our host here, has both denials and evidence on tap, here on this site.
Go to the “controversy library”, item 5. Here on this site, were our host provides what you incorrectly say he does not provide.

After you honestly inform yourself, you would be in a better position to make informed comment. Or, better yet, withhold comment, after being accurately informed.

At the moment, you are far less informed than you assume that you are. “Cringe-worthy” comes to mind.
????

Malik
Malik
6 years ago
Reply to  adad0

Thanks for telling me. All I had seen is him dancing around the matter before. I’ll look and see if what he says is convincing. I have seen him admit to not reporting something illegal, so we’ll see if he contridicts that. I do not actually assume that I am informed, you on the other hand are terrible at civilized conversation. Thank you for that personal attack.

adad0
adad0
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

“Personal attack”?
No.

Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser; teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.

Need a Compliment?

You are extremely wise,
In your own eyes at least!

Malik
Malik
6 years ago
Reply to  adad0

Well played from someone who like banter and cleverness.
WTH from someone who wants a intelligent conversation.
Lol

adad0
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

M’ ,

You are and remain, Drama Royalty! ; – )

Clay Crouch
Clay Crouch
6 years ago
Reply to  adad0

A, you are and remain Sad Clown, the Court Jester.

adad0
adad0
6 years ago
Reply to  Clay Crouch

Wow Clay,

I don’t expect you to be completely original, but this is far from your best work.

1.2 on a scale of 10. (no hang time)

Perhaps the new year will bring a renewed sense of humor! ; – )

Malik
Malik
6 years ago
Reply to  adad0

Furthermore I would love to learn that the pastor I grew up listening to was falsely accused. I’m not just hating on him, I had just heard no controdiction.

Clay Crouch
Clay Crouch
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

Malik, my friend, welcome to the show that never ends – The Fun House of Mirrors.

OKRickety
OKRickety
6 years ago
Reply to  Clay Crouch

Clay,

You wish me to provide reasoned responses to comments. I ask that you do the same, rather than your snarky insinuations that the majority of the commenters here are incapable of knowledgeable conversation.

Clay Crouch
Clay Crouch
6 years ago
Reply to  OKRickety

Okey Dokey, I feel your pain.

Dave
Dave
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

Malik, frequently the defense is in the life we live. I have been accused of things, yet the consistent life of mine allowed even those who do not like me to say the accusations are false.

The accusations against Wilson are not founded in truth but are a mixture of partial truth and straight up lies. His life hasn’t changed and those who know him understand that the accusations are false. Only those looking on the internet, who cannot discern truth from falsehood, are deceived by the false accusations. The pastor you grew up listening to is still A-OK.

Malik
Malik
6 years ago
Reply to  Dave

Makes sense

Carl
Carl
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

Hogwash

tom skill
tom skill
6 years ago
Reply to  Malik

This post is about why conservatives don’t trust the media. It makes a good point. The Washington Post is expert at being literally true and presenting both sides while leaving a completely deceptivea nd biased impression in the mind of the reader. This is called “professional journalism”. It protects them from libel suits and lets them pretend to themselves that they are being fair. The women who accuse Roy Moore of sexual assault are not believable, and the women who are believable do not accuse Roy Moore of sexual assault, just of courting them with the consent of their parents.… Read more »

Michael A. Vickers
Michael A. Vickers
6 years ago

Hi Pastor Wilson.

If Moore was applying for membership to your church would these allegations hold up the process?

JDF
JDF
6 years ago

I have had the experience a few times of reading a newspaper article concerning myself, or an event I was at. It is amazing how much stuff they get wrong. Absolutely simple stuff that is factually just wrong. It will certainly make you wonder about how much of the 99.99% of the rest of it you know nothing about is true.

paulm01
paulm01
6 years ago
Reply to  JDF

I’ve been quoted a few times by a reporter and for the life of me can’t recall saying what they put in quotes. I prefer to take half of what I read as reported fact, then believe half of that…safer bet.

Gabriel N
Gabriel N
6 years ago
Reply to  JDF

Journalism should be illegal.

bethyada
bethyada
6 years ago

Tangentially related. Ravi Zacharias Responds to Sexting Allegations. And some very conservative advice on avoiding misbehaviour (and false allegations).

Bro. Steve
Bro. Steve
6 years ago

The mainstream media, to speak in generalities, sold their credibility a generation ago.

As Bro. Doug said, if you ever have the experience of being in an event which makes the news, you’ll be totally flabbergasted at how wrong they get things… and flabbergasted all over again at how little it concerns them to be embarrassingly dead wrong.

Again, these are generalities. But such things happen far too often for the media to have any realistic hope of being the public information brokers they once were.

asdf
asdf
6 years ago
Reply to  Bro. Steve

It’s also something to remember. When you see how wrong they get an article about the industry you work in…that’s how wrong they get every other industry too.

Bro. Steve
Bro. Steve
6 years ago
Reply to  asdf

asdf,

I work in nuclear power. So yeah, tell me about it. They don’t get much of that right.

nae313
nae313
6 years ago
Reply to  Bro. Steve

I guess I’d respond with two questions,

If the MSM/4th estate aren’t going to be the brokers, then who will and how should the general public get information about a candidate for office?

If Donald Trump got evangelical votes despite overwhelming evidence of sexual assault, then why shouldn’t people believe Evangelicals are merely apathetic rather than skeptical about Roy Moore?

Bro. Steve
Bro. Steve
6 years ago
Reply to  nae313

Dear nae313, Right now the job of disseminating news is being taken up by a wide variety of people and outlets, with a wide variety of credibility levels. At the rock bottom of the credibility hierarchy are the traditional broadcast alphabet news outlets. Nobody believes them any more. Second, evangelical voters are looking for people who, if elected, can be relied upon to stop using the engines of government to wage an aggressive culture war against Christianity. I don’t know anybody who thought Mr. Trump is a good exemplar of Christianity, not even the guys at Liberty Univ., who embarrassed… Read more »

nae313
nae313
6 years ago
Reply to  Bro. Steve

I feel like you’re missing the forest for the trees. My chief concern is not that Evangelicals don’t believe the allegations against Judge Moore. It’s that even if they did believe them he’d still be getting their vote. If Evangelicals in America had a strict “no-sex offenders” policy then Trump wouldn’t be the president. So liberal media bias isn’t really the issue here. It’s the political calculus that’s infected politically active Evangelicals. The bar isn’t just low now for candidates who advance our causes. We’ve effectively removed the bar entirely. Frankly, I find this development pretty horrifying. The MSM didn’t… Read more »

Bro. Steve
Bro. Steve
6 years ago
Reply to  nae313

Dear nae313, I don’t believe Moore would still be getting the votes of evangelicals if it were known (or at least credibly alleged) that he had molested a kid or attempted to. Maybe some would. I believe the vast majority would not. Attitudes of deep South evangelicals on this: In the first church I pastored (in the deep South), we kicked out a child molester after first taking the case to the sheriff, and the criminal had precisely zero percent sympathy from anybody. I’m familiar with another ongoing situation also in the deep South in which church workers caught a… Read more »

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
6 years ago
Reply to  nae313

Nae, This gets to one of the sticking points. There is no alternative media. There are outlets, but they do very little reporting or investigative journalism, instead they provide personalities and punditry. This was in stark display when, after the Weinstein allegations broke, you had a bunch of “conservative” outlets complaining that it had been known all along, it was an open secret, etc. etc. Well, why didnt Fox break the story then, or Breitbart, or National Review, or Daily Caller… why was it broken by the New Yorker – bastion of liberal elitism? It’s because none of those outlets… Read more »

Charles Anthony
Charles Anthony
6 years ago

Luckily Jesus set the example of turning the other cheek!

David C Decket
David C Decket
6 years ago

Why bother reading these asinine comments, what a waste of my time.

somethingclever
somethingclever
6 years ago
Reply to  David C Decket

Thank you for adding to their number.

nae313
nae313
6 years ago

I think this argument would be solid were it not for the giant bright orange zit staring out from its face. Donald Trump is president because evangelicals voted for him. Alabama was one of Trump’s most lopsided wins. Need I remind you that Trump, acknowledged groping/ogling women on live radio broadcasts, hotmikes, and porno magazine articles. Trump is a man who said he likes Jesus but can’t get behind that whole confession of sin thing. He’s a guy who cheated on wives #1, #2, and trophy wife #3. He’s a gross person who nobody should let alone with young women… Read more »

Justin Parris
Justin Parris
6 years ago
Reply to  nae313

“Donald Trump is president because evangelicals voted for him. Alabama was one of Trump’s most lopsided wins. ”

You realize, I assume, that a high margin of victory in a single state is in no way helpful in winning the presidency. It was the blue collar but not particularly religious states that he won by a small margin that won him the presidency.

nae313
nae313
6 years ago
Reply to  Justin Parris

If evangelicals had abstained from voting in 2016, Trump loses every state. Evangelicals in Alabama went for trump at least 3-1.

I don’t think these claims have been disputed by anyone.

adad0
adad0
6 years ago
Reply to  nae313

Huh…..

Somehow nae313 is not president. (?)

‘Wonder if it’s that “zero tolerance” thing? ; – )

Yet, somehow Bill Clinton was president.

Libs must not have had a zero tolerance standard for Bill. (?)

They must have made some sort of craven political calculation, …….like HRC.

As calculations go, it appears to be a calculation that did not work out.

nae313
nae313
6 years ago
Reply to  adad0

Bill Clinton’s sexual assault doesn’t negate Trump’s.

Liberal hypocrisy doesn’t cancel out evangelical hypocrisy.

Trump is permanently eroding our moral high ground and “what-about x” is a pretty sad argument to begin with, but it’s just gross when it’s used to defend sexual assault.

adad0
adad0
6 years ago
Reply to  nae313

Psssst, nae’,

A soap box is not any sort of high ground, moral, or otherwise. ; – )

Morality is eternal, and with grace, attainable.

nae313
nae313
6 years ago
Reply to  adad0

I don’t consider a “don’t vote for men who abuse women” to be a self-righteous and preachy stance to take.

adad0
adad0
6 years ago
Reply to  nae313

Sounds more like a policy than a stance, but in any case, let’s apply it and not vote for John Conyers or Anthony Weiner, as their abuse of women is settled fact.????

nae313
nae313
6 years ago
Reply to  adad0

You don’t need to trust any of Trump’s accusers to believe he’s a sex offender.

There are at least three tape recorded conversations in which he describes some pretty creepy behaviors. The sad thing is only one of those tapes were made without his knowledge.

Ginny Yeager
Ginny Yeager
6 years ago

“They buy their ink by the barrel, and so they do not feel the need to accept correction.”

And you never know who is buying their barrels of ink or twisting their writing arms: https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32403785.pdf

bethyada
bethyada
6 years ago

the establishment media has been disgracing and beclowning itself for decades now, and conservative people just don’t believe them anymore.

Exactly. And it is not that we think that everything they report is untrue. But that they are just unreliable.

Gabriel N
Gabriel N
6 years ago

Meanwhile, the opposition has moved on to voter intimidation.

http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2017/12/pro-doug_jones_ad_provokes_con.html

jonathan
jonathan
6 years ago
Reply to  Gabriel N

We should mark this down as historical! it’s 2017, and White conservatives in Alabama have finally acknowledged voter intimidation.

JP Stewart
JP Stewart
6 years ago
Reply to  jonathan

Aw, Malik, I mean Jonathan, showing his hate for white Southerners once again. The last case of voter intimidation (New Black Panthers bringing sticks to polling places in the 2008 election) was totally ignored by Eric Holder and the Obama administration.

jonathan
jonathan
6 years ago
Reply to  JP Stewart

How desperate were you to prove me right? You just called something that happened NINE years ago “the last case of voter intimidation”, as if Alabama hasn’t had far more substantial voter intimidation issues…I don’t know, maybe last month? What’s that say about your willingness to acknowledge voter intimidation? Or the ongoing massive voter suppression efforts being undertaken on the federal level by Kris Kobach, someone who has focused on suppressing all the votes he could for his entire public career? As far as Philly 2008 goes, the fact that zero voters reported being intimidated, along with the fact that… Read more »

jonathan
jonathan
6 years ago
Reply to  JP Stewart

And the reliance on ad hominem attacks doesn’t help your case. Half my family background is conservative White Christians from Missouri by way of West Virginia, and on the other side I’m descended from one of the defenders of the Alamo. The issue of voter suppression by White conservatives in the South, and an unwillingness to acknowledge it, is open public knowledge. I’ll ask you this question – when do you believe that White conservatives in Alabama FIRST acknowledged that voter intimidation was a problem? If you can’t answer that question, then how can you criticize me pointing it out?… Read more »

Gabriel N
Gabriel N
6 years ago
Reply to  jonathan

The best cure for voter intimidation is to abolish voting.

Ken B
Ken B
6 years ago

This story has finally made its way onto the BBC site. If you visit them, it would be interesting if you think they have reported this objectively or not.

http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-42243132/alabama-evangelicals-at-a-crossroads-over-roy-moore

paulm01
paulm01
6 years ago
Reply to  Ken B

Absolutely fair reporting (operative word there being “reporting”, a far cry from the mainstream media on this side of the pond.)

jonathan
jonathan
6 years ago
Reply to  Ken B

There wasn’t really that much reporting in the piece. They basically just picked a few people and let them speak their minds, although some of the questions were a bit pointed. It did seem that the people they spoke to were fairly representative, and (without being sure because I obviously don’t know them personally), there was the impression that they were giving them the chance to express their opinion fully and clearly. On a side note, the BBC is one of the better English-language broadcasters out there, and I don’t doubt that their mixed funding model (meaning less focused on… Read more »

bethyada
bethyada
6 years ago
Reply to  jonathan

The BBC was shown to have an anti Christian stance.

jonathan
jonathan
6 years ago
Reply to  bethyada

Th e BBC is a quite large organization and that’s a big claim to make. I’ve heard these claims that the BBC is biased against conservatives and sometimes that’s extended to Christians in general, but I haven’t seen the evidence for it in their news coverage. Most people in England are non-practicing and the conservative party is a minority,, so I wouldn’t be surprised if the composition of presenters at the BBC reflects that. But just in recent history, the Chairman of the BBC Trust from 2011-2014 (Chris Patten) was a practicing Christian and conservative, the Director-General of the BBC… Read more »

paulm01
paulm01
6 years ago

In support of Wilson’s points, Challies has a similar post this morning, albeit more directly related to church executives, however it does apply to Moore et al. The final paragraph makes the argument that (to paraphrase) “we [who were not present at the time of the incident] withhold judgement until a number of witnesses prove the allegation.”

https://www.challies.com/articles/do-not-admit-a-charge-against-an-elder/

OKRickety
OKRickety
6 years ago
Reply to  paulm01

paulm01, ‘Calvin takes a pessimistic but not entirely unrealistic position when he says this: “… as soon as any charge is made against ministers of the Word, it is believed as surely and firmly as if it had been already proved. This happens not only because a higher standard of integrity is required from them, but because Satan makes most people, in fact nearly everyone, overcredulous so that without investigation, they eagerly condemn their pastors whose good name they ought to be defending.”’ As you point out, this also applies to Moore and anyone in the public eye who clearly… Read more »

paulm01
paulm01
6 years ago
Reply to  OKRickety

OKR: Very much so, people look for, find, and use the chinks in the armor of those in their crosshairs.

Charles Williams
Charles Williams
6 years ago

“They buy their ink by the barrel, and so they do not feel the need to accept correction. They are above all correction, and now we find ourselves in the position where vast swaths of the populace simply disregard whatever they say.”

There’s a lesson there for all of us. If we don’t accept due correction, there may come a point where we are disregarded.

jonathan
jonathan
6 years ago

One of the women who says she dated Moore when she was 17 and he was 34 has now provided reasonably extensive evidence that completely contradicts Moore’s recent rally statements, including a signed graduation card that lends a small bit of weight to the other girl’s yearbook claim. (FBI forensic investigator says the handwriting is naturally prepared, and the two samples are similar, but would need more samples for any sort of conclusion.)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/woman-shares-new-evidence-of-relationship-with-roy-moore-when-she-was-17/2017/12/04/0c3d1cde-d903-11e7-a841-2066faf731ef_story.html

jonathan
jonathan
6 years ago

Pastor Wilson, past the false statements about his past actions with high school girls (I don’t know how anyone can believe his claim that he didn’t date high school girls at this point), how much do you feel that other false statements told by the campaign compromise Roy Moore’s witness? In his first public statement after the allegations, Moore claimed that the Washington Post had engaged in fake news merely to hurt him politically, and that he had ongoing investigations which would prove such things about the motivation and content of the article that would be ready to be released… Read more »