But Only If This Kind of Thing Reassures You

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“Am I Reformed? Am I a Calvinist? This is a point upon which I understand there has been some discussion. Well, in brief, I wish there were seven points so I could hold to the Calvinistic extras. You may count me a devotee of crawl-over-broken-glass Calvinism, jet-fuel Calvinism, black-coffee Calvinism. Or, as my friend Peter Hitchens had it, weapons-grade Calvinism. No yellowcake uranium semi-Pelagianism for me. I buy my Calvinism in fifty-gallon drums with the skull and crossbones stenciled on the sdie, with little dribbles of white paint running down from the corners. I get my Calvinism delivered on those forklift plats at Costco. I trust this reassures everyone, and I am glad we had this little chat” (From The Romantic Rationalist, p. 66).

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Eric Stampher
Eric Stampher
9 years ago

Quintessential Calvinism by definition demands continual improvement.

You’ve already been working that sixth point.
tulipS — the S = Special grace applied to folks in the Church, some of whom ain’t necessarily going to heaven.

James Bradshaw
James Bradshaw
9 years ago

I used to find Calvinism repugnant, but I guess it’s the only religious philosophy that reason can bring one to given the world as it currently exists, mainly due to the problem of evil and suffering. Evil exists. If God is unable to do anything about it, He’s not omnipotent. If He’s unwilling, then He’s not omni-benevolent. Therefore, God wills evil for some “good” (known only to Him, of course). The same logic can be applied to Hell. I will say that modern Calvinists do seem a little more willing to declare themselves amongst the Elect, far more than the… Read more »

Eric Stampher
Eric Stampher
9 years ago

why are you so sure

Because He said so?

Eric Stampher
Eric Stampher
9 years ago

JB — and what gives you assurance, then?

Rob Steele
Rob Steele
9 years ago

JB, it sounds like you still find Calvinism repugnant but have resigned yourself to it. It is reassuring to know that you’re in good hands, even if they’re the same hands that designed the evils you mention. The good he intends by it is not as opaque as you make out. Rom. 9:22-23 is the key. In a world without evil there would be no occasion for God to demonstrate two of his favorite things, his wrath and his mercy. Both are awesome and both come out gloriously in the cross. It’s done now and won’t need to be repeated… Read more »

timothy
timothy
9 years ago

I also don’t understand how it’s “reassuring” to know that everything is going exactly as God has planned. Ebola, ISIS, the rape and decapitation of children … God could literally have not conceived of a better world for humans. I am often confused and angry by God’s actions and I let Him know it. Yesterday I prayed to Him that the very experience of being a human being isn’t very interesting–meaning I can envision more-interesting ways of being. I have also prayed to Him that I would have never made man or the world with the fore-knowledge that He has.… Read more »

John Barry
John Barry
9 years ago

Isn’t it reassuring that this jet fuel god has unalterably ordained each sin I am to commit today?

I think I’ll down a cup of black coffee to celebrate this!

katecho
katecho
9 years ago

James Bradshaw wrote: “Ebola, ISIS, the rape and decapitation of children … God could literally have not conceived of a better world for humans. I don’t know about you all, but if that’s true … why are you so sure the next life is going to be peaches and cream?” Has anyone else noticed a particular absence when the unbeliever attempts to tell our story? Notice how they almost always leave out that bit about the Fall. They pretend that God conceived of a sin-filled and decaying world from the get-go, as if it came pre-cursed. It’s like they are… Read more »

John Barry
John Barry
9 years ago

katecho,

You say, “[The unbeliever] pretend[s] that God conceived of a sin-filled and decaying world from the get-go, as if it came pre-cursed.”

You sound like a semi-Calvinist here (for which I commend you). Do you shy away from the broken glass?

A pre-cursed, sin-filled and decaying world from the get-go, exhaustively and unalterably decreed by God, is precisely what weapons grade Calvinism asserts.

Thomas
Thomas
9 years ago

“The Romantic Rationalist” by Piper??

Jane Dunsworth
Jane Dunsworth
9 years ago

A pre-cursed, sin-filled and decaying world from the get-go, exhaustively and unalterably decreed by God, is precisely what weapons grade Calvinism asserts.

By no means. Pre-cursed, yes, in the sense that the curse was pronounced to begin to take effect in due course. But not actually under the curse, and not sin-filled and decaying, no, as weapons-grade Calvinism asserts that God uses means in history to execute His decrees.

John Barry
John Barry
9 years ago

Jane,

You say, “God uses means in history to execute his decrees.” Does this qualification explain anything? What does this distinction mean, exactly?

Are not the means God uses in history as exhaustively and unalterably decreed as everything else?

Charlie Long
9 years ago

John Barry,

You seem to prefer a god whose purposes are alterable, are not decreed, and over which you have a bit more say. Yes? No? It is clear what you do not approve of, but a point-for-point alternative would help us know exactly which kind of god you’re advocating for here.

Charlie Long
9 years ago

John Barry, Also — you have a point about the means being unalterably decreed. And so here’s what we Calvinists have got to do: We have to say God is completely sovereign, AND that He is free from the taint of evil. And here’s how (and why) we do that: On the one hand, we’ve got to accept that God is God over everything, because this is the only way we know how to think of God consistently with the way God represents Himself in scripture. We refuse to “protect” God’s reputation by softening the concept of His sovereignty, because… Read more »

John Barry
John Barry
9 years ago

Charlie, Your brief layout of the Calvinist position is well put. Thank you. You say: “On the one hand, we’ve got to accept that God is God over everything, because this is the only way we know how to think of God consistently with the way God represents Himself in scripture. We refuse to “protect” God’s reputation by softening the concept of His sovereignty, because we insist that scripture doesn’t allow us to do that. If God says He is like X, then we shrug and say, “Okay — God is like X,” and we’re all in.” And: “When your… Read more »

Jane Dunsworth
Jane Dunsworth
9 years ago

Are not the means God uses in history as exhaustively and unalterably decreed as everything else? Yes. but the things He decrees do not happen until they actually happen by the means He has decreed. Therefore, He created an uncursed and living world that was decreed to be cursed and dead, but it was not cursed and dead until the means occurred that actually caused the curse and the death. The creation is governed by God’s decrees, but is distinct from it. Just because God has decreed something does not mean it has yet happened, if He has not yet… Read more »

John Barry
John Barry
9 years ago

Charlie, You say to me, “You seem to prefer a god whose purposes are alterable, are not decreed, and over which you have a bit more say. Yes? No? It is clear what you do not approve of, but a point-for-point alternative would help us know exactly which kind of god you’re advocating for here.” Read through the Bible, forgetting creeds, confessions and commentaries. That’s what God is like. Or, alternatively, talk to a 10 or 12 year old uncatechized child about God–one who has read the Bible a time or two. He or she will tell you what God… Read more »

Charlie Long
9 years ago

John Barry,

You wrote:

Show me in the Scripture where God says that He has exhaustively and unalterably decreed everything that happens from before the foundation of the world.

Scripture declares and/or demonstrates that God is sovereign over weather, creation, time, a king’s heart, conception/fertility, famine, animal behavior, a pharaoh’s rebellion, election unto salvation, resurrection, a man’s sensory perception, dreams, the motions of heavenly bodies, wars, riots, calamity, etc., etc. Perhaps it would be helpful if you could list the things that you believe are not under God’s sovereign control, and we could go from there.

RFB
RFB
9 years ago

Is any thing too hard for the Lord?

Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh; is anything too difficult for Me?”

If a trumpet is blown in a city, will not the people be afraid?
If there is calamity in a city, will not the Lord have done it?

Known to God from eternity are all His works.

For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up…

Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

Wesley Sims
Wesley Sims
9 years ago

One point that really cements Calvinism as being correct, as I understand it, is that to say that God only has a knowledge about every possible outcome–rather than a reigning omnipotence that ordains all events–you have to suppose that Creation has an existence outside and independent of the LORD. If Christ upholds all things by the word of His power (Heb 1:3)–and He does–and in Him ALL things hold together (Col 1:17)–and they do–then you cannot conceive of a Creation that can exist outside of the sustaining power of the Creator. That thought may have issues to explain and chase… Read more »

Matt
Matt
9 years ago

Perhaps it would be helpful if you could list the things that you believe are not under God’s sovereign control, and we could go from there.

Man’s will must not be, otherwise it may as well not exist.

The problem with Calvinism is that if you are part of the elect nothing you do matters, and even worse if you aren’t part of the elect then nothing you do matters.

John Barry
John Barry
9 years ago

Charlie,

You say, “Perhaps it would be helpful if you could list the things that you believe are not under God’s sovereign control, and we could go from there.”

In the Bible, sovereignty has to do with judging–carrying out justice, not with meticulous control of the sovereign’s subjects. Abraham rightly identifies God as “the judge of all the earth.”

Addressing your comment above, God has not unalterably decreed your or my willing.

John Barry
John Barry
9 years ago

RFB, The verses you cite each have a context. Are you taking them out of context and making them universal? For example, “Is any thing too hard for the Lord?” Answer: No. The LORD can–and will–enable Sarah to conceive. Do you think the LORD is speaking to Abraham here of His (supposed) meticulous control of every movement of every atom in the universe? And, “If a trumpet is blown in a city, will not the people be afraid? If there is calamity in a city, will not the Lord have done it?” Are you consistent in your universal application here?… Read more »

RFB
RFB
9 years ago

Matt,

“Man’s will must not be, otherwise it may as well not exist.”

Really. How much control did you have regarding being conceived and born? If it was not under your control whatsoever, is that a reason for you not to exist?

Mr. Barry,

“…things happen that are not God’s will.”

Really? You really believe that there is someone whose will and effort is stronger than Gods?

The Lord has made all for Himself,
Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Matt
Matt
9 years ago

If man’s will is not under his control, then it is no will at all.

Charlie Long
9 years ago

John Barry, You wrote: In the Bible, sovereignty has to do with judging–carrying out justice, not with meticulous control of the sovereign’s subjects. Abraham rightly identifies God as “the judge of all the earth.” I want to make sure I understand your position correctly. Are you saying that ALL biblical examples of God’s sovereignty are ONLY examples of His sovereignty over judgment? Are you saying that God is not sovereign over ANY of His creation EXCEPT as it pertains to judgment? That God NEVER exercises sovereignty EXCEPT in judgment? And are you claiming that all the scriptural references I and… Read more »

Charlie Long
9 years ago

Matt, You wrote: If man’s will is not under his control, then it is no will at all. That is one of the logical possibilities; but it is by no means the only one, or the one we’re forced to accept. Another possibility is this: “If man’s will is not under his control, then it is not the sort of will I’ve been assuming it was.” or.. “If man’s will is not under his control, then he is not the sort of man I’ve been assuming he was.” But consider the alternative: If man’s will IS under his control, then… Read more »

Matt
Matt
9 years ago

Free will doesn’t mean that your decisions are never influenced by anything, but only that you need not heed those influences. That I’m hungry may make it more likely that I make some (bad) decision, but I am free to ignore it and make another. On the other hand, if God could simply pull the strings and effectively force me to make some decision, then I don’t have free will and am simply a puppet or at best a computer program following a decision tree.

Rob Steele
Rob Steele
9 years ago

Brochure! Snork.

Rob Steele
Rob Steele
9 years ago

Matt, what if you are a puppet? Is that bad? It’s bad for your self-esteem maybe but would it be wrong of God to make puppets? The serpent suggested to Eve that she could pull her own strings. I submit that that’s the lie we bought in the fall.

John Barry
John Barry
9 years ago

RFB, “Really? You really believe that there is someone whose will and effort is stronger than Gods?” I actually said that things happen that are not God’s will. There are implicit examples throughout Scripture. Following are some explicit examples. And the Lord said to Samuel, “Obey the voice of the people in all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me from being king over them. They built the high places of Baal in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I… Read more »

John Barry
John Barry
9 years ago

Matt, what if you are a puppet? Is that bad? It’s bad for your self-esteem maybe but would it be wrong of God to make puppets? The serpent suggested to Eve that she could pull her own strings. I submit that that’s the lie we bought in the fall.

Rob, did you write this, or did your puppet master?

John Barry
John Barry
9 years ago

Charlie, Regarding sovereignty and judgment, I should have been clearer. I believe biblical sovereignty has to do primarily and chiefly with judgment–not exclusively. I believe God created and Jesus upholds the universe by his word of power. You say, Here I would argue quite the contrary, and from scripture. Please consider the following: 1) Did God create your will? If so, what say did you have in that aspect of God’s dealings with your will? If He did not create your will, then where did it come from? I believe my whole being is from God. 2) Please explain what… Read more »

Charlie Long
9 years ago

John Barry, You say God “influences” your will. But did He “influence” it into existence, or rather create it from nothing without your input at all? Before you were created, what was your opinion of having a will created for you? See, this is one area in which you really do believe that God has had dealings pertaining to your will which you had absolutely no say over, and no part in. You and others want to argue that if God were to do sovereignty stuff with your will (stuff without your input), then your will would be nullified; and… Read more »

Charlie Long
9 years ago

Matt, I hear what you’re saying. But I think it’s still not as clean as you are representing it to be. I think you will agree: we make decisions based on our strongest desire in the moment. Now we may spend a lot of time rationalizing through a choice, and we may find ourselves conflicted for a while, but at the end of the day we will always (and without exception, always) choose according to our strongest desire at the moment of choice. Even choosing to sacrifice one’s life is a choice made in deference to the strongest desire; for… Read more »

John Barry
John Barry
9 years ago

Charlie, I think you misunderstand me. I acknowledge that God created me. My will had nothing to do with it. God does countless things beyond the scope of my will. But he doesn’t co-opt, or “take over” my will–or anyone’s. Thus, I speak of his influencing my will. You say, “there’s no barrier to accepting that it is this same sovereign initiative that establishes and maintains your will in real time.” I don’t understand what this means. Can you clarify this? Let’s assume that “it never entered my mind” is an idiom. What does it mean? And from the Isaiah… Read more »

John Barry
John Barry
9 years ago

Charlie,

In your response to Matt, you assert that “at the end of the day we will always (and without exception, always) choose according to our strongest desire at the moment of choice.”

What evidence can you furnish me to prove this is true?

TK
TK
9 years ago

Have any of you ever looked at Molinism? http://www.reasonablefaith.org/molinism-vs-calvinism

Charlie Long
9 years ago

John Barry, You wrote: But he doesn’t co-opt, or “take over” my will–or anyone’s. And I agree — God does not co-opt your will. God created your will. Your will exists because of God’s sovereign initiative, not in spite of it. The two things (your will and God’s sovereignty) are not in tension in a Keynesian sort of way, as though God’s piece of pie has to be smaller in order for yours to be bigger. On the contrary, the larger God is, the freer you are. It is the hard-line naturalistic atheists who have most reason to be deterministic… Read more »

Charlie Long
9 years ago

John Barry, But first, this little one I forgot. You wrote: In your response to Matt, you assert that “at the end of the day we will always (and without exception, always) choose according to our strongest desire at the moment of choice.” What evidence can you furnish me to prove this is true ? And I would answer this by challenging you to provide one solitary example, whether real or hypothetical, of a choice made contrary to the desire that was strongest at the moment of choice. I mean, if you think about it for a minute, it’s almost… Read more »

Charlie Long
9 years ago

John Barry, A while back I did some blogging on this topic, and I wonder if you’d be interested in reading what I wrote over there. I don’t want to paste the whole article (actually it was a short series of articles) here because I don’t wanna be rude to our host; but I also don’t wanna be rude to you by just throwing a link up here and walking away. So here’s a short clip from one of the posts, and I’ll put the link below. Just so you know, I feel like I’m short-changing the argument by only… Read more »

Charlie Long
9 years ago
John Barry
John Barry
9 years ago

Charlie, You say, “The Calvinists boast the greatest freedom in the strongest God.” Do yo mean by this the God who determines the most? You also say, “it’s very easy to also say that He continues to establish your will by His sovereign power.” Perhaps I’m thick, but I don’t understand what you mean by God establishing my will by His sovereign power. Does this mean that God keeps me alive, thereby enabling me to go on willing? If so, I fully agree. If this means God ordains everything I will, I disagree. You say, “And I would answer this… Read more »

Rob Steele
Rob Steele
9 years ago

“Rob, did you write this, or did your puppet master?”

Yes, both 100%.

See what you make of this. God creates everything that is not himself out of nothing. I hope that is non-controversial. Now here’s the tricky bit. Time is not God therefore time is part of creation, therefore God transcends time. Time is our natural habitat but not his. He knows the end from the beginning not because he’s really good at predicting but because he’s there. “I am the beginning and the end.” It casts human freedom in a new light.

Charlie Long
9 years ago

John Barry, You wrote: No problem. Yesterday my wife was about to run out to watch a movie with some of my daughters and nieces. She asked me if I would mind pulling out the chairs around the dining room table and vacuuming. I did mind. My strongest desire was to continue to do what I was doing. I had zero desire to pull out chairs and vacuum. I willed against my desire and vacuumed anyway. John, this example doesn’t help your case, no matter how you slice it. For either you were acting according to your strongest desire (perhaps… Read more »

John Barry
John Barry
9 years ago

Rob, “God creates everything that is not himself out of nothing.” I confess a limitation on my part. Try as I might, I am unable to conceive of “nothing”. So, I can’t honestly say I believe in creation out of nothing. This of course doesn’t mean that God didn’t create out of nothing. I understand time to be a measure of motion. I don’t see it as a “dimension” in which we live. Again, I face a limitation here. I can’t conceive of existence without sequence. So I believe God exists sequentially just as we do. I am unable to… Read more »

Rob Steele
Rob Steele
9 years ago

‘I am unable to conceive of “nothing”’ That’s fine because there is no such thing as nothing. When we say God creates from nothing, it’s not like he has a big supply of nothing. It just means that God is absolute, ultimate, and fundamental and that creation is not himself. “I can’t conceive of existence without sequence.” Nor can I, or I suspect, anyone. I don’t think we’re meant to. What we can imagine though is that time for an author is different than time in his story. It’s easy to see how an author can have a whole story… Read more »

John Barry
John Barry
9 years ago

Charlie, You say: “For either you were acting according to your strongest desire (perhaps the desire to love your wife), in which case you’ve illustrated my point; or else you were not acting according to your own desires, in which case your example is evidence that your will is not as free as you are claiming it is.” But there are other options. I may have acted on my own desire that was not the strongest. Or, my willing gave rise to or altered my desires. For example, my wife asks me to vacuum. I have zero desire to vacuum.… Read more »

Rob Steele
Rob Steele
9 years ago

“Why … evil?”

JB, sorry to butt in here but you started one of my hobby horses. The short answer is that it is good that there is evil. God brings it about on purpose for good reasons. Note well that God does no evil but it is his idea. Without evil there would be no occasion for the cross and the cross is the point of creation. He’s all about that grace.

Jane Dunsworth
Jane Dunsworth
9 years ago

John,

In your example, your desire to love your wife was obviously stronger than your desire not to vacuum. As Charlie said, it’s really a tautology. It is impossible not to do what you desire most, because even acting against your selfish desires reflects a desire to do so.